Getting that Beck "Sea Change" / 70's "dead" drum sound.

[junior]

some more ideas:

evans hydraulic heads (no duct tape required)...
larger wooden snare drums...
52-strand snare strainers (trust me - very fat)...
floppy down pillow in the kick...
old turkish cymbals...
packing blankets hung around the kit...
a bong...

[vespiz]

We once got a nice 70's type sound by putting light towels/rags on the drumskins.
It was really heavy on the drummer and he couldn't play long, but it was worth it!

[matt thomas]

the snare I saw of becks drummer after he used it in the studio was a brady, smaller than average but not really small, with heaps of dampening stuff stuck on it.

btw. he's drumming for the new Crowded House now

narco

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by severe

I've always thought that Beck was influenced, a lot, by Gordon Lightfoot on Sea Change. There are melodies, production qualities, and instrumentation, including vocals, that are very similar on a few tracks. Good record.


Anyone else hear it?

i think it's a bit more inspired by nick drake, but i agree with you.

[code green]

Originally Posted by J. Kennedy

It doesn't hurt to have a drummer like Joey Waronker play on your track.

In all seriousness, I've worked with Joey before and he's the softest-hitting drummer of all time. The sound on "Paper Tiger" is a perfect example of how drums sound totally different when you're barely hitting them.

If you did "Paper Tiger," check out Serge Gainsbourg's "Melodie Nelson" album. "Paper Tiger" is a direct bite from "Melodie Nelson" right down to the production aesthetic.

i knew it was reminding me of something...nice call, and right on the money.

[miqer]

use less mic's as possbile...

1 overhead (ok, you can have 2), and one bd mic...

[Chrisc_o]

I disagree. The sound is too "in your face" to have been miked with OHs only.

At least a close snare mic (probably 2: top and bottom) to get such a clean and detailed representation of the performance. It is just so crisp with very little ambiance.

[Sigma]

hit the archives i did a detailed breakdown

[fuga]

Please try the LUDWIG LM400 SupraPhonic (1975) that was made in the Ludwig Chicago Factory.

Deep Purple, Jethro Tull, Humble Pie, Cream, Jimmy Hendrix, Beatles, Led Zeppelin,Yes among others are the most well-known users.

"Lonesome Tears" it's one awsome tune! That keyboard after the chorus... What kind of vintage keyboard is this?

[RMO]

There are so many factors associated with this technique.
As stated above:

Big rooms with adjustable dampening yield much better results. We chased this dragon on a session I did at Bill Skibbe's Keyclub Recording out in MI. He had an iso booth barely big enough for drums which we thought would produce a better dead sound and we went with the big room after hours of frustration, and the results were Much better with breathing room. Those small rooms are tough for that sound just because the low/low mid is key and the wavelengths don't have enough room to get going.

Other tips:

Big wood snare (ala ludwig pioneer, radioking, or anything big with a mahogany veneer)

Remo CS/Evans Hydraulics heads work wonders (both Harvey Mason and Mike Clark used CS's on Headhunters/Thrust)

Remove heads from front of kick, bottom of toms. This is a must!! Heads off the toms allows you to get up under in that bitch. A big blanket in the kick with a brick holding it flush often works for me.

Large diaphragms on the kick/snare/toms (I like either the sm7 or RE-20 in the kick, u87's on the toms, snare) ribbons over/in front of the kit (coles 4038 are my fav)

Play softer! The pure sound of those toms comes from hitting soft in the sweet spot, allow the toms to resonate more.

Lack of player volume is compensated with moderate compression (again, Bill Skibbe's Red Stripe compressors worked wonders for this, a bargain for you LA-2 chasers).

Bottom line, these are some ways to "mimic" that sound, but without an arsenal of u47's, a big neve console, a great sounding room, a 2" machine, and Jim Keltner, you'll be hard pressed to make an exact repro of this amazing sound.

"Black Cow" off of Steely Dan's Aja is a great example of this!

[europa78]

Originally Posted by J. Kennedy

It doesn't hurt to have a drummer like Joey Waronker play on your track.

In all seriousness, I've worked with Joey before and he's the softest-hitting drummer of all time. The sound on "Paper Tiger" is a perfect example of how drums sound totally different when you're barely hitting them.

If you did "Paper Tiger," check out Serge Gainsbourg's "Melodie Nelson" album. "Paper Tiger" is a direct bite from "Melodie Nelson" right down to the production aesthetic.

except that James Gadson played drums on all but two songs on sea change. guess which two tracks are joey and which are james.

[Mojo]

Well, if you really wanna be "period correct", you gotta use maxi pads, we didn't have moon gel in the seventies.

[dandeurloo]

i can't believe no one has said anything about the suggested 18 x 18 kick. Ha good luck with that. I would try and get my hands on a 20 wide x 14 deep. At least something not as deep as the 18.

I think the sound of the drums themselves will get you much further then anything else.

Oh and I am sure Tape was used as well which is probably a huge part of the sound. Maybe track the drums and then have your files bounced to tape to get a little bit of that sound.

[recky]

Great that this thread has come up again. I have experimented with the early 70s sound for more than a year and have kind of perfected it. It has, in fact, caused me to sell all my digital gear and buy a Studer multitrack as well as a 1/4" Telefunken stereo R2R. However, this is just the icing on the cake - the sound is almost COMPLETELY in the instruments used and how they are played.

Experiment with sparse micing (e.g. mono OH, kick and snare, or for a mid-70s sound, reso heads off toms and kick and miced from just inside the shell), muffling (gaffer tape and tissue paper on Ambassador heads, thick blanket in kick), and it's also important to leave some distance between mics and drums.

A run-of-the-mill mic collection will suffice, but careful with the treble content when recording to digital - there is hardly anything in the "air" department on early 70s recordings.

Cheers,
Recky

[Gulliver]

+1 on a key element being removing the front BD and bottom tom heads.

[m.faust]

varispeed?
i love seachange a lot. i allways thought they used a lot of varispeed on the 2". the sound of the album is fantastic! so fat and warm.

[rishi]

+1 on dish towels/rags. Try placing them at different distances on the drum. I have a friend who puts t-shirts/rags over the entire snare. It has a unique dead sound. When I play his kit, and want it a bit less dead, I only cover half of the snare with the rag and it opens up a bit more. Test different amounts of deadening until you find the sound you're looking for.

[steelyfan]

Originally Posted by recky

Great that this thread has come up again. I have experimented with the early 70s sound for more than a year and have kind of perfected it. It has, in fact, caused me to sell all my digital gear and buy a Studer multitrack as well as a 1/4" Telefunken stereo R2R. However, this is just the icing on the cake - the sound is almost COMPLETELY in the instruments used and how they are played.

Experiment with sparse micing (e.g. mono OH, kick and snare, or for a mid-70s sound, reso heads off toms and kick and miced from just inside the shell), muffling (gaffer tape and tissue paper on Ambassador heads, thick blanket in kick), and it's also important to leave some distance between mics and drums.

A run-of-the-mill mic collection will suffice, but careful with the treble content when recording to digital - there is hardly anything in the "air" department on early 70s recordings.

Cheers,
Recky

Hell yes!
I'm a 70's drum sound nut, and my experiences are similar, after using simpler/less mics and farther distancing placement, the drums just mix themselves. Dampening/compressing snare and kicks seems proper too.

Dito on the overall music recording style too, after getting a dryer drum sound, it's amazing at how easy just mic'ing guitar cabs and even direct bass makes making a record easy. If that's the sound you like that is, and for me it is! Just some subtle compression on a few things and light..light reverb maybe and your're done. Getting over Steelydan style production and welcoming more of a Kinks/late 6o's early 70's sound has started making music a blast again to create. Bring on the amp hiss!

I'll also add that taking the bottom heads of drum toms and front head off kick with towel helps tremendously.
I also play a Fibes drum set, and well, it really just sounds 70's to begin with.

Steelyfan

[chrisj]

I think I pulled off a decent 70s sound with one of my sample instruments

http://www.airwindows.com/m/StealthKitJam.mp3

Really, the biggest factor was damping. Teatowel snare, kick has a blanket stretched right across it under the rim. The toms ring louder than the kick but you don't hear them as such, they blend. Also- light soft whoofy Zildjian hats, with a much lower frequency spectrum than heavy 'projecting' hats.

That whole sample drumkit period was a huge amount of work that kinda fizzled (mind you, they're still for sale!) but the one part of it I'm proudest of is Stealth Kit, which is the super damped 70s groove kit. I just love it so much, still

[Dr. Mordo]

I am really enjoying this thread. Something we tend to forget is that every sound has an application. There is no such thing as a 'bad' sound, only an 'inappropriate' sound.

If one were to try it, I would expect 70s drums to sound bad on a Metallica album, but in the correct context they can be perfect.

[suedesound]

Didn't read the whole thread yet so might be repeating things, sorry if I am.

No front head on kick, don't be afraid to add dampening.

O ring or piece of paper on snare (probably want emperor or equivalent for the top head).

Drums from that era help but may not be a possibility.

Wood snare for sure

Those sizes of kick and snare probably won't give you the desired result.

Dead room

try out a ribbon on kick if you have one around.

close micing

[suedesound]

i can't believe no one has said anything about the suggested 18 x 18 kick. Ha good luck with that. I would try and get my hands on a 20 wide x 14 deep. At least something not as deep as the 18.

agreed, I can get the 70's sound pretty easily from my 20x14 slingerland kick with no front head (suprisingly doesn't need much muffling/dampening either).

[rkopald]

Originally Posted by jomo1234

here is an mps of the Gainsbourg song if anyone is interested in hearing.....great production!

That's f&*kin awesome. Thanks for posting that. Now I have to go get some Serge Gainsbourg....

[jddrews]

jm drum fills.mp3

So here's my go at it. The faders are at 0, no eq or anything yet, so be gentle. Fathead II's for overheads (FMR RNP), sm57 on snare (stock 003), D112 on kick (stock 003) and Oktavamod MK-319 FOK (LA-610). We moved the pillow up to the front head inside the kick, tea towels on the snare and toms, and notice the roll of tape on the hi-hats.

We're shooting for a Mott the Hoople vibe.

[Sword in Hand]

Looking at the picture of the drum set for Sea Change, posted earlier, it's clear that the toms have minimal dampening (REMO Heads, not sure which kind). Snare is shallow, but I would guess that the drum was tuned in the middle range, not super low. There's a crispness that would not happen at super low tunings, I don't think. The toms are definitely tuned low. Again, listen to the first 4 seconds, the tom fill in the beginning.

For mics, looks like a 57 on snare, and a 414 on the rack tom, or is that a 421? Can't really tell. Not sure what the "overhead" mic is, maybe a C12? Looks like another mic is back in the shadows, too.

[steelyfan]

Originally Posted by jddrews

Attachment 131374
Attachment 131373

So here's my go at it. The faders are at 0, no eq or anything yet, so be gentle. Fathead II's for overheads (FMR RNP), sm57 on snare (stock 003), D112 on kick (stock 003) and Oktavamod MK-319 FOK (LA-610). We moved the pillow up to the front head inside the kick, tea towels on the snare and toms, and notice the roll of tape on the hi-hats.

We're shooting for a Mott the Hoople vibe.

yea yea!
Sounds good, you can tell this setup will sound great with other instruments and mimxed. A hint of verb on maybe even the whole drum group might work when mixing later. I like it.

One thing though, try tuning the rack tom a little higher to get a hair more melodic tom fill, the floor tom with pop a little more when you can hear the timbre difference of the two toms too.

nice job!

Steely

[jddrews]

Ah, good point on the drum tuning. It makes sense to tighten the heads a bit to compensate for the dampening. I'll be sure to try that next time. Thanks!

[Blewgrass]

I am also a big fan of the "Ringo" drum sounds from the Beatles which is not as dampened as the Beck album discussed by the OP, but on the right track. I am a huge fan of dampened drum sounds.

[Mike Caffrey]

Originally Posted by lpettipoole

I record all my band's material, and we are going for a sound similar to "Golden Age" off of Beck's album Sea Change.

We have an excellent drummer (I know this is a piece of the pie), and I plan to help him deaden the drumkit quite a bit more than normal. I figure we will just use an excessive amount of moongels on his toms, but as far as the kick and snare... His go-to set is a Pork Pie maple with an 18x18 kick and a 5x13 snare. I argue that both of these drums will be too small. Advice there?

MiKing...I assume no room mics, should I mic the hi-hat and cymbals individually? For the kick drum I want something warm and muffly, it shouldn't really stick out or have a click. Is this mostly in the drum tuning/muffling or are there specific miking techniques involving 1 or 2 mics that I should try?

Sorry, lots to read there, thanks in advance, gents.

18x18 can get you one of the best possible kick sounds. You'll probably need a woofer mic.

A prok pie 5x13 is probably not the best choice for what you're going for.

Rather than trash the sound with moon gel, try removing the bottom heads on the toms. I'd stuff the kick rather than remove the resonant head.

Don't compress much and if you do, don't use a super fast release.

[centurymantra]

One of my favorite snare tricks is to place an extra old snare head upside down on top of the snare. This gets a super fat, but sorta thick, dense, dry tone that I love. Drummers always seem to have fun with this too.