ITB,OTB, OTB to tape, examples enclosed

[everybody's x]

Note; I have edited the original message because I screwed it up, here are the new files

some of you may find this interesting, then again it may start more arguments
here are 2 tracks Identical in every way except

1.one version is completely ITB

2. one version is mixed out of the box through my yamaha board (rm800) then to 1/4" 456 on my studer A807


The version that hit tape is WILDLY better in my room coming off the tape, but once converted back to digital the benefits seem to diminish considerably.

Anyway I thought it might be fun to try them out and see what the opinions are.


http://www.everybodysx.com/shock5.MP3
http://www.everybodysx.com/shock6.MP3

[RKrizman]

Well, for what it's worth I like #3 the best. Is that through the board to tape?

Also, it seems louder.

-R

[everybody's x]

I wont spill it yet, but NOPE

BTW, I didnt do any kind of mastering to it, no compression or eq or anything,maybe I should have normalized them all to the same volume.


and I obviously didnt take the time to edit the tempo issues , and my bass playing sucks

[tubesandteles]

#3's snare is less irritating.... It hits my ears better. Is that really to tape?

[everybody's x]

I thought so too. number #3 is NOT to tape. oh and an edit, I did use the boards EQ on each channel,

[sleepwalker]

I track drums to my Otari 1/2 8 track. On playback it sounds great. Once I digitize it(RME ADI 8pro), it loses most of what I liked on playback in the room. Kind of a bummer. I've got access to a Rosetta 800, but I doubt it would be worth the time and effort.

Originally Posted by everybody's x

some of you may find this interesting, then again it may start more arguments
here are 3 tracks Identical in every way except

1.one version is completely ITB

2. one version is mixed out of the box through the board and back into my motu 1224

3. one version is mixed out of the box through my yamaha board (rm800) then to 1/4" 456 on my studer A807


The version that hit tape is WILDLY better in my room coming off the tape, but once converted back to digital the benefits seem to diminish considerably.

Anyway I thought it might be fun to try them out and see what the opinions are.

[everybody's x]

Originally Posted by sleepwalker

I track drums to my Otari 1/2 8 track. On playback it sounds great. Once I digitize it(RME ADI 8pro), it loses most of what I liked on playback in the room. Kind of a bummer. I've got access to a Rosetta 800, but I doubt it would be worth the time and effort.

thats exactly what Im hearing here.

[everybody's x]

Originally Posted by tubesandteles

#3's snare is less irritating.... It hits my ears better. Is that really to tape?

OK, does that mean ALL the snares are irritating, just #3 is less so?
bummer

[Marcus B]

I reckon:

shock) board mix
shock2) board to tape
shock3) ITB

shock3 sounds way more open and yeah snare actually sound so different like there's some treatment on it or something that isn't on the other two tracks

[everybody's x]

you are hella-close
the "treatment" is the board EQ


shock=tape
shock2=otb
shock3=itb

[tubesandteles]

I have overly sensitive ears to certain frequencies. For example, a really essy sounding vocal coming through my cd player when I'm driving down the road might cause me to crash. Hey...I can't do better, I've already had my mix completely stripped in the MP3 section. I don't like the way the snare sounds in any of the mixes but #3. I can't tell you exactly why. I wish I could. But, I am curious, what were you using for guitar amps...and what mics were used on the drums.

[tubesandteles]

Victory for ITB! Seriously, I was fearful that #3 was the tape. The tape I will never have. For god's sake, I have never even felt tape in person...LOL Well..cassette tape. But WOW... I honestly prefer #3. Tell about the setup. Cause it must have been good on the inside before you messed it up with that mean old board and tape!

[everybody's x]

GTRs= Les Paul>Mesa Boogie 50 caliber>Celestion Vintage 30's>57>Yamaha RM800 pre


Drums=
Kick Audix D6
Snare 57
Toms 421's
OH=mc012's

[everybody's x]

of these 3 I too prefer it ITB, BUT I WISH you could hear the tape in the room, SO much better

[tubesandteles]

How did you do the snare? Compressors and all. Any eq? What kind of snare is it? Dead ringers on it?

[everybody's x]

snare is a '68 acrolite. remo ambassador head, mic'd one inch from the rim or so. I track with Nuendo. I am using digital fishphones Blockfish for compression and Dominion for flavor, the verb is the stock Nuendo verb

it did have a dead ring on it (NO SAINT ANGER SNARES!)

eq is
boosted @ 143 5db's low shelf

notched at 380 -2 Q is 2.0

boosted @ 8900 4 db's hi shelf

[84K]

I like them in order. #1,#2, then #3.

#1 is definitely my favorite.


*EDIT* I wrote my response before I read the answer.... that being said, I did not know which was which. I just knew which I liked and in what order.

[everybody's x]

thumbsup the tape just sounds kick ass here. I will try dumping it back to digital at 96K and see if it maintains it's "tapeyness"

[RKrizman]

I'd say stop messing around with the Studer and mixer--you're just getting yourself into trouble.

-R

[everybody's x]

OUCH!

[u b k]

1224's

the tape never stood a chance... two passes thru the motu will kill anything! and if i'm reading things right, the board mix uses the yamaha eq's and itb doesn't?

with your setup, clearly, itb is the way to go.


gregoire
del ubik

[everybody's x]

Originally Posted by u b i k

and if i'm reading things right, the board mix uses the yamaha eq's and itb doesn't?

gregoire
del ubik

that is correct, I will redo it with the eq's out to see how much different it is,

as far as the motus, well , Im stuck with them for a long time I suspect

[everybody's x]

ok heres OTb to tape with all eq's on the board out

still think its better ITB

[lawrence_o]

Hey guys,

The only conclusion I can make is that the converters aren't too good... I had the exact same problem until I switched my digi 1622 and 882 / 20 boxes to prism ADA-8 boxes. Now, when I go from the console to ITB, and back to the console, you don't lose all these details so ITB might be better here because the actual ADDA sucks... And believe me, it IS very important. I remember having sampled a kick from scooter through my AKAI S6000, which then went optically into an ADAT bridge. You should think that you don't lose anything once sampled because after all you stay digital. Well, that same kick into my pro tools sounded like shit. THe punch was missing and so I started hating the S6k. However, one day I used its analogue outs into a small mackie console and found that now, the kick had all the punch from the CD I sampled it from!!! Than I started realising how much crap digidesign sold me, okay, it's not an 888 nor HD but I also tested those against an ADA and the difference is still remarkable.

You guys who doubt should call Prismsound once and ask them for a demo ADA and try, I'm sure you're gonna start saving money to be able to buy that expensive box.


Kind regards

[djui5]

[silent E]

I guessed #1 was ITB and #3 was tape, kinda surprised it was opposite. #1 seems a little more clear and spacious, #3 seems stronger in the low-mids and less detailed, though a bit louder...(tapey-er?)
Have you tried mixing ITB then recording to tape?
Sounding good in any case.

Jed

[not_so_new]

Not bad but the vox are kind of buried huh?



Sorry just wanted to be a smart ass.

I will say that cheap converters are not helping the cause any. No offence but the Motu converters are not top of the line (sorry if this was covered already, I am not reading any more of the thread so I don't learn which mix is which). You said it yourself once converted back to digital the differences are much less. To me this means the converters are the weak link in the whole deal but it should get the digital hates out in full force....

[everybody's x]

I think I need a good 2 channel AD to get it back from the tape.

the singer sucks, soo I buried him!

[lawrence_o]

Indeed, you need good ADDA, 2 channels or more. I've said it a few times and will say again: the best are by far prismsound! They are completely transparant and do not color in any way. Check out their web site: www.prismsound.com. I've been in your place too and tried a few converters amongst HD192 but did not like them all that much.

Ask prism for info on used ADA-8 96kHz models or check out funky junk.

You will be very very happy afterwards.

Kind regards.
Lawrence

[Sui_City]

Originally Posted by sleepwalker

I track drums to my Otari 1/2 8 track. On playback it sounds great. Once I digitize it(RME ADI 8pro), it loses most of what I liked on playback in the room. Kind of a bummer. I've got access to a Rosetta 800, but I doubt it would be worth the time and effort.

Guys,

Put your RME's and MOTU's up against a good converter.

You'll shit your pants.