software drums as real drum replacement?

[demel]

I know that there are midi whizzes that can program some very authentic sounding drum kits. Is sampling technology up to a level yet that a good programmer could trick experienced ears into thinking that they are hearing a real kit? How about if it was buried into a mix?

I'm asking because of a few sessions that I did with a guy doing some hip hop. He asked for one of the songs to have real sounding drums. He wasn't very interesed in hiring a session drummer to do the tracks...so ...we tried the midi route. The drums that ended coming out sounded like....midi playing sampled drum sounds.

Once again I ask...with good programming could it be done?

Thanks.

[Bishbashbosh]

Quite a lot of my session work is exactly that..... But then I'm a drummer!
From my own experience I know what to do to make something sound 'real'!
If you're going to hire a programmer, why not hire a drummer - I cost the same whether I'm programming or playing.....

Yes the technology is there to make samples sound real enough to fool most people.... but it needs to be programmed by someone who totally knows what they're doing, and has the right gear.
It doesn't matter how good the samples are if you're inputting them with an MPC or the like, that doesn't allow for a little human-ness, it'll sound machine-like pretty quickly.

If the option is there to record real kit, then do it..... if you want to get it programmed properly it'll probably cost you much the same!

[Sqye]

I've been doing this for years And most people have never known the difference. But the bottom line is - does it sound good to YOU and/ or your clients - if you have clients

Of course I do a lot of contemporary music, so when I need to do some more eleborate acoustic ensemble stuff, then I usually use the real deal - just because for really sophisticated and exposed acoustic music, it doesn't make sense to spend your life programming one 10 minute piece - and it's pretty hard to fake the really exposed stuff - although it can be done. It OBVIOUSLY depends on who your market is, also.

I'm not a real drummer, but I do play enough to understand what I want from the grooves (I do play lot of other instruments) - I've also spent loads of time programming with extraordinary drummers/ programmers/ percussionists at my side. It REALLY helps having the players who understand the instruments working with you.

There are so many options available at this point, library-wise, and with all the software - chances are (no offense to any drummers), if you're a really good musician, and have some decent gear, you may end up with a track that sounds better than it would if you HAD used an actual drummer.

People have been asking me for years who plays bass on my stuff - well, Marcus Miller and Abe Laboriel (sample collections) : ) have been VERY present. I've tracked some of my favorite bass players and couldn't come CLOSE to the sounds that serious clinical recording professionals have been able to get when they set up for some of these libraries - the process can be pretty intense (and EXPENSIVE) to get these libaries together. There's a lot of attention to detail - most folks don't have TIME/ BUDGET to get that kind of care happening in these days - it's not like the 70s (where, as Skunk Baxter said, you could spend hours just finding the most comfortable chair to sit in - all at the cost of the label - doesn't necessarily sound like smart business on the part of the label - but those records sound KILLIN').

Disclaimer - of course you'll have a harder time fooling the SERIOUS recording engineers (like some of the gearslutz here) - but, unless THEY are your audience, you shouldn't have much to worry about. Check it out, and see for yourself!!


Lots of luck.

[Rodney Gene]

Originally Posted by demel

Once again I ask...with good programming could it be done?

Thanks.

Absolutely. It is all in the programming. Samples have been 'good' enough for years...

Funny but recording my first album in 1986-87 we were trying to get real drums to sound like drum machine samples!!

[Vermeer]

For my own recordings, I've tried with MIDI a real drummer. Here are my observations:

1- Nothing beats a real drummer recorded by someone *who knows how to record and mix drums*. A real drum alone does't necessarely results into a great drum track. I've recorded with someone who had no clue and the tracks ended up *inferior* to the drum machine demo.

2- Drum samples and/or drum machines have one big advantage: they were already recorded and sometime even pre-mixed. When you're not sure how to approach recording and mixing drums, this can save you tons of time and frustrations.

3- As mentionned above, the best MIDI drum tracks are often performed by drummers, cause they know what it takes to sound natural. Some things are just impossible to get unless you already know how to do them manually. Drum rolls, ghost notes, skipping beats, accents, all add to a convincing performance.

4- One thing that really helped me was to first figure out which famous drummer I would have hired if money was no object. Then, based on that choice, I would choose between hiring a MIDI programmer or booking studio time with a real drummer. For example, when I want Tony Thompson (Chic, Madonna, David Bowie), I usually go for a drum machine, because his sound has been reproduced in so many machines. If I'm want Neal Peart (Rush), there's no point in trying to program all this: it would take too long.

5- Then, there's the approach of mixing the two in a single tune. The drum machine is used as a "loop" texture during the verses while the real drum is used on the chorus where things really matter. This is not just for "new metal" like Linkin Park: I have heard this on Cheryll Crow's "Steve MacQueen" and it adds quite a bit of dynamics.


Hope this helps,

Vermeer

[Mystr Tiger]

The degree of realism is directly proportional to the programming skill, and inversely proportional to listener skill and complexity of the drum part. So, yes, I say that given excellently good programming, a simple drum part could be indiscernible to the real thing in the mix. Products (like DFHS) that include facilities to randomize multiple samples (to reduce machine-gunning) and that have mic bleed help to increase the realism. But, I'm not sure whether experienced ears could be fooled, especially with an exposed kit. It might be interesting to do some blind listening experiments. For myself, I'm not fooled by my own drumming using DFHS, but that's because I know it's not real.

What might be more important is how musical the results are. Maybe realism is not as important as making a drum-like part that is sonically and emotionally pleasing for the specific song. Even though I might prefer real drums, using samples does mean a lot more variety and the ability to choose drum sounds that complement the song.

[BB Bill]

It is absolutely possible - I do it everyday, using DFHS with a bit of BFD every now and then.

As has been said already, it depends on your programming skills, and your knowledge of how a drummer actually performs a track.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by demel

Is sampling technology up to a level yet that a good programmer could trick experienced ears into thinking that they are hearing a real kit? How about if it was buried into a mix?

Ahem.

Let me preface this by saying that this rant is not ponting directly at you. Rather, it is more about this "way or attitude" of thinking.

{Open}

Trick?

It's kind of a funny word to use when describing something in which we are supposedly passionate about. Music being that thing.

Are we magicians?

Do we apply this to our entire lives?

Let's say that music is your passion but you still need a straight job to pay the bills.

So this is your life:

Music, Love, Work, Bills.

We know that you like to trick people into liking your music. So how about love? Do you slip something into your girlfriend's drink so that she "thinks" you are interesting. Do you wear a hairpiece? Muscle pads so that she believes that you are strong?

Work. Do you spend the better part of an 8 hour day trying to "trick" your boss into thinking that you are a good worker? Stealing other worker's reports?

Bills. Do you print or buy counterfeit money so you can fool or trick the utility companies into giving you services for free? Do you?

No. You don't.

You don't do these other things but you do cheat with your passion?

Very interesting.

[demel]

Trollin' ?

Is this how you welcome all the new posters,....trickers?

[bjornson]

I'm very interested in hearing some of this monster programming. Please post some files. I've done some experiments with sampling my own kits and playing real cymbals against them. The results were OK. Typically when programming where it all falls apart is with the hi hat. This is totaly overlooking the fact that if the drummer has real chops and the music allows for any degree of nuance, it's a complete wash out. Seriously, post some files and prove me wrong!

[kittonian]

For a lot of studios recording real drums is simply not an option. Either there's not enough great pre's, comps, and eq's around to do the job, not enough mics, the room isn't up to par, or any number of other things that inhibit the ability to get great sounding drum tracks from a real drummer.

I'm not going to use the word "trick" here but I will say that there is an exceptional way to produce drums, using a real drummer, but not actually using an acoustic kit.

Roland makes an amazing product called the TD-Pro V-Drum kit. It's not cheap (about $5295 if I recall correctly) but it's a complete drumset with a hi hat, cymbals, 4 toms, kick and snare. It's made to trigger sounds in a very realistic way and transmit midi messages to a DAW.

So, if you've got something like Nuendo 3, Cubase SX, ProTools, or Digital Performer, all you would need to add into your software arsenal (besides the obvious compressors, eqs, transient designers, etc.) is software from ToonTrack known as DFHS and C&V (Drumkit From Hell Superior and Superior Custom & Vintage). Together you've got about 70GB of samples with technology that makes for extremely realistic drum tracks. They are all in raw form which means you will seriously need to know how to mix drums to get the most from it but you can have a drummer sit and play the TD-Pro drumset triggering the sounds from DFHS/C&V, just as they would be playing a real drumset.

The really cool thing is that you can track a bass (or the entire band) at the same time and lock the bass player and the drummer together without worrying about phase, bleeding, separation, etc. No mics to setup, no pre's to purchase. Just sit down and play.

The absolute best part is that after you've done the take you can always go back and adjust certain hits if need be (making the kick drum perfect in time while the snare may drage a little here and there). You also have the freedom to change parts down the line, so, if you decide that the hi hat really should've been a ride cymbal, no problem. Just make the change and you're good to go.

If you want to get really crafty, you could even add a few real cymbals around the TD-Pro set and mic them up (such as a pair of overheads and a room mic). This way you are getting the best of both worlds if it sounds better to you that way. Some people prefer that method, some just use the samples included in the software.

I've been using it for quite some time on various sessions and so far no one has been able to pick out that they aren't real drums. In fact, I did a few songs where a couple were with a real drumset and the others were using DFHS/C&V. I played them for a few people and asked them to tell me which ones were a real kit and which ones were the samples. No one could tell them apart.

Hope that helps explain things a bit clearer. Good luck!

[bjornson]

Originally Posted by kittonian

In fact, I did a few songs where a couple were with a real drumset and the others were using DFHS/C&V. I played them for a few people and asked them to tell me which ones were a real kit and which ones were the samples. No one could tell them apart.

Lets hear it!

[Rodney Gene]

Originally Posted by bjornson

I'm very interested in hearing some of this monster programming. Please post some files. I've done some experiments with sampling my own kits and playing real cymbals against them. The results were OK. Typically when programming where it all falls apart is with the hi hat. This is totaly overlooking the fact that if the drummer has real chops and the music allows for any degree of nuance, it's a complete wash out. Seriously, post some files and prove me wrong!

It is all goal dependent...

I am finishing up an album for an 80's style rocker musician and we use samples that sound like drums trying to sound like samples because it works to convey the energy and sound we are after.

Real drums / drummers would work but it would have changed the the way we approached the rest of the instruments and changed the sound too much.

Drum programing isn't about being realistic so much as being faithful to the song.
I love some classic 80's pop like Tears for Fears, AHA, Hall and Oates etc. where the 'drums' were pure machine based but nobody thought twice about it...The songs were perfect as is.

Listening to Pyromania right now (brother Mike Shipley and Mutt doing some excellent work here) I love these drum sounds...totally unnatural.

Of course if being faithful to song means real drums and or drum sounds and all you have are samples or midi to work with...then you need great programing and usually the simplier the better.

I have been wriitng drum parts on machines for years...successfully.
If it works it works.

[norman_nomad]

Sample kits can incorporate bleed, multiple velocity layers and sample redundancy, but they have not (at least that I know of) captured the sound of a true "consecutive" hit.

In real life, when a snare drum is hit, it's set into motion, so to speak. The body resonates, the sound projects into the room and bounces around being collected by the room mics and then being reflected back into the close mics creating "ambiance". Drum sample kits haven't captured the sound of the "second hit" - the sound of the snare/cymbal/tom makes after it's been struck once, and then struck again. The projection and tone of the second hit will be slightly different than if the drum where struck when at rest. Also, and maybe more importantly, the projection of the "second hit" (and thrid/fourth/fifth/etc) is interacting with the lingering decay of the previous hit within the room.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by kittonian

For a lot of studios recording real drums is simply not an option. Either there's not enough great pre's, comps, and eq's around to do the job, not enough mics, the room isn't up to par, or any number of other things that inhibit the ability to get great sounding drum tracks from a real drummer.

IMNSHO, that's a cop-out.

If all you have are three mics and a mediocre room you can still capture great tracks from a great drummer. The key is making sure that all the other bits are up to par. From the drums to the drummer to the parts he's playing...if those are together then they'll outshine a less then stellar room. Granted the kit won't sound like it was recorded in a beautiful room, but I've encountered kits tracked in beautiful rooms that sounded like complete poo...where it's unsalvageable and we have to start fresh. Experience conquers all.

YMMV but mine hasn't.

I'm not going to use the word "trick" here but I will say that there is an exceptional way to produce drums, using a real drummer, but not actually using an acoustic kit.

Roland makes an amazing product called the TD-Pro V-Drum kit. It's not cheap (about $5295 if I recall correctly) but it's a complete drumset with a hi hat, cymbals, 4 toms, kick and snare. It's made to trigger sounds in a very realistic way and transmit midi messages to a DAW.

A few years ago I was hired by a progressive rock band to clean up their mixes and finish the record. The drummer played a V-Drum kit so we didn’t have the programming hurdle to contend with. The drummer was great; the parts he played were fine but the sounds...ohh man...the sounds...

Totally fake.

A few years ago I was hired by a progressive rock band to clean up the mixes and finish the record. The drummer played a V-Drum kit with (thank Mirtha!) real cymbals so we didn’t have the programming hurdle to contend with. The drummer was great; the parts he played were great but the sounds...ohh man...the sounds...

Totally fake.

The sampled cymbals are also a dead give-away that the kit is electronic. That's actually worse then the machine-gun snare.

None of the tones complemented each other and it sounded like four different kits mashed together with the result being not unlike samples from a drum machine. After much trial I scrapped ALL of the V-Drum sounds except for the kick (IIRC that might’ve gotten trashed too) and some specialty stuff. In place I used samples of real drums and with a little bit of work and some great ‘verb it sounded more like a highly processed real kit, but a real kit none-the-less.

Since then my thoughts on the V-drums haven’t changed…they’re the best of the electric stuff but are no replacement for the real thing. If all you need are pads and triggers, then there are cheaper ways to do get there then the V-Drums. Besides $5K can buy you a decent kit and a handful of microphones to record real drums and if you want the sound of real drums…then you have to use real drums.

[kittonian]

Originally Posted by bjornson

Lets hear it!

Alright, here's two tracks. You can all reply and see if you can pick which one is the real thing and which one is using DFHS/C&V.

I didn't bother posting the AIFF files so MP3's will have to do.

Your Eyes - http://www.audiolot.com/studios/demos/ye.mp3
Maybe It's Nothing - http://www.audiolot.com/studios/demos/min.mp3

[JP11]

I guess Maybe It's Nothing...

[JP11]

on the other hand, the Your Eyes one sounds a lot cleaner and punchier, plus the drums are a lot lower in the mix, so that could very well be the fake...in the Maybe song. the snare is so smashed it sounds kind of fake, plus the cymbals are so placed , that's why I picked it as the fake...I don't know...even if the Your Eyes song is the fake one, I'd say the drums are probably better sounding...

[norman_nomad]

Hey Kittonian,

I appreciate you posting samples. At least you put your money where your mouth is.

I have to say that, to me, BOTH examples sound like samples. "Your Eyes" is fully a drum sample performance to my ears.. and too quantized sounding. The drums in "Maybe it's nothing" sound like they're at least augmented with samples. The snare fills have that "machine gun" effect. Either way, the drums aren't exactly taking center stage in either song.

Thanks for posting examples.

[gainreduction]

Say you spend a shitload of time getting the feel of a real drummer (you think, at least) and the sounds (yes, there are great sounding samples) and you think you're there.

You can never fake the energy that a real drummer brings to a song.

You can never fake the fact that there's a real person playing something that actually fits the song, and plays to the song. (In contrast to using played loops where the drummer might play with a lot of energy but still not to your song. Probably just to a click. Exactly the feel you were looking for, right...??)

This has nothing to do with sounds, it's all about music, feel and emotion. The drummer is a very important member of a band and why should he be faked ??

Those of you who think sampled drums always sound better have obviously never worked with good drummers.

[BB Bill]

Originally Posted by gainreduction

This has nothing to do with sounds, it's all about music, feel and emotion. The drummer is a very important member of a band and why should he be faked ??

Those of you who think sampled drums always sound better have obviously never worked with good drummers.

never said they ALWAYS sound better.

but as someone else mentioned earlier, recording drums is not always a viable option.

a well executed sampled drum track usually beats a poor sounding live drum track.

a well executed live drum track is always preferable, but sadly not always an option.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by gainreduction

Say you spend a shitload of time getting the feel of a real drummer (you think, at least) and the sounds (yes, there are great sounding samples) and you think you're there.

You can never fake the energy that a real drummer brings to a song.

You can never fake the fact that there's a real person playing something that actually fits the song, and plays to the song. (In contrast to using played loops where the drummer might play with a lot of energy but still not to your song. Probably just to a click. Exactly the feel you were looking for, right...??)

This has nothing to do with sounds, it's all about music, feel and emotion. The drummer is a very important member of a band and why should he be faked ??

Those of you who think sampled drums always sound better have obviously never worked with good drummers.

Absolutely!!!!!!!!

The spaces between the hits are just as important as the hits themselves.

Samples don't add that space. Drums are a kit. Not a group of individual hits.

Listen to the toms rattle and shake on a good kit.

With the addition of convolution reverb, a good room to record drums is less of an issue. Just use a pair of great Pres on the Overheads and some crappy Pres on the rest. Than add samples and Convolution Reverb and you should have a much better performance and sound than a machine alone.

Yeah. Some songs and parts work fine with machines. And if the song is meant to work that way, that's great. Listen to all the R&B using fake acoustic guitar. They make it work. But they don't try to make it sound real. They make it a totally different thing. Which is what those 80's groups did. Mutt Lange was not shooting for realistic. It's when you want to make it sound like a kit that you will easily fall short.

Replacing people in music is bad. Just ask a robot.

[Kenny Gioia]

Oh.

And "Maybe It's Nothing" clearly has FAKE drums.

Every single crash is the same volume.

I like your songs by the way.

The other song sounds "more" real but that part his too simple to really tell.

[tunasafedolphin]

Originally Posted by Produceher

With the addition of convolution reverb, a good room to record drums is less of an issue. Just use a pair of great Pres on the Overheads and some crappy Pres on the rest. Than add samples and Convolution Reverb and you should have a much better performance and sound than a machine alone.

SSHHHH!!!!! Are you nuts?!?! You're gonna put me out of a job...



Honestly guys, how do you think your clients favorite drum sounds are made?! A good drummer, a good sounding kit, a guy who does a decent job in a decent room (or a good CR), some samples thrown in the mix, and a good balance - it's not rocket surgery.

-C

[Rodney Gene]

Originally Posted by Produceher

Yeah. Some songs and parts work fine with machines. And if the song is meant to work that way, that's great. Listen to all the R&B using fake acoustic guitar. They make it work. But they don't try to make it sound real. They make it a totally different thing. Which is what those 80's groups did. Mutt Lange was not shooting for realistic. It's when you want to make it sound like a kit that you will easily fall short.

That is the bottom line Kenny...and that is why none of it matters if your goal is always the song vision. Sometimes sampled quantized drum is the perfect sound and perfect feel...

Stevie Wonder...one of my favorite musician / producers (crappy tennis player though) is a constant inspiration and reminder of making a synth work for what it is. Steve never tried to get a synth to sound acoustic..he just used the natural energy of the sounds to gain his ground with.

Replacing people in music is bad. Just ask a robot.

Using drum replacement software, drum machines etc is not replacing people (if that is what you meant). People still have to write the parts and or play them. It just need to be understood what it is and accepted for what it is not.

It's not 'live' recorded drums...it is something else. And it works when it works.

I am grateful for samples and grateful for great drummers...and at one point I needed them both at the same time.

Respect...

[tunasafedolphin]

Originally Posted by Rodney Gene

...one of my favorite musician / producers (crappy tennis player though)

Seriously one of the best SNL sketches EVER!

-Christian

[captain54]

Originally Posted by Rodney Gene

That is the bottom line Kenny...and that is why none of it matters if your goal is always the song vision. Sometimes sampled quantized drum is the perfect sound and perfect feel...


Respect...

Here, here...I would totally agree

there have been times I have set up three mics in a crappy room but the performance, groove and the way it fits with the tune is perfect and it totally works...and as someone mentioned, combining real drums with sampled loops, MPC type groove machines, can yield some very interesting results....

I don't care how close you can get to "real", you would never see midi/virtual drums in an Elvis Costello, Lucinda Williams, Buddy Guy type session.....

on the other hand, I have used DFHS virtual tracks that have totally worked in some tunes...bang out a midi drum part on a Vdrum kit, trigger DFHS or BFD, then play with the quantizing, swing it, alter in some dramatic way and you might get some interesting odd, twists to the tune you never thought would happen....or switch some of the kits parts after you've recorded the midi....you never know

if you're going for "real" you are wasting your time...better to view the new virtual drum technology as another color to the sonic palette....

as far as "your eyes" and "maybe it's nothing"...Kittonian, it's a good effort...I wouldn't say it sounds "bad" or "fake".....it is what it is....I would say within the first 15 seconds of "maybe it's nothing" I could tell it was sampled drums, though

I would bet my britches that if you just took a few mics and played around with positioning and got the drums tuned right, regardless of the room, a real acoustic drum performance would blow the doors off the virtual drums and serve those tunes much better....

[JP11]

Originally Posted by Rodney Gene

Stevie Wonder...one of my favorite musician / producers (crappy tennis player though) is a constant inspiration and reminder of making a synth work for what it is. Steve never tried to get a synth to sound acoustic..he just used the natural energy of the sounds to gain his ground with.

His music where he played the drums sure is good!!

[max cooper]

I don't think most people would ever say "Great song except the drums don't sound real... aw, fug it then... it stinks"

If that were true, Def Leppard would have been emptying your dustbin years ago.

It all depends on what your doing.

There seems to be a need to categorize things as 'good' or 'bad' but they're all tools.

I'm a big fan of a great drummer on a great sounding kit, but I also like the snare sound on 'Word Up'.

Aphex Twin uses all kinds of sounds for percussion.

I understand that the original question is whether or not you can make sampled drums sound like they're real. But making them do so is like trying to hit a moving target. The shark in Jaws scared lots of people back in the '70's, but it's laughable now.

[kittonian]

This has been an interesting discussion to say the least. I'm impressed by the few who caught that both songs posted were using DFHS/C&V. Some didn't however and that proves my point.

People in "the know" can tell whether things are real drums or sampled drums (for the most part) but the public doesn't listen like we do.

The two songs I posted were demos prior to the real drums being done and were heavily processed with plug-ins. The mixes were also both done completely in the box with the only analog gear during mixing being a 2 bus compressor (dbx 160sl). In fact they were laid in using a Roland SPD-20 octopad and then quantized to all be in perfect time so that the other instruments could be laid down without using a click track.

When I showed these roughs to non-engineers and asked them whether they were real or sampled drums, not one person could tell me without a doubt which they were.

There is no question in anyone's mind whether or not a great drumset that's tuned to perfection and has all the right stuff surrounding it (room, mics, pres, comps, eqs, and the engineer) and is being played by a fantastic drummer will make a difference. Of course it will. The point of this discussion was whether you could use software to make samples sound like real drums to the outside world. The answer is yes you can. Will it ever be as amazingly dynamic as a perfect situation like I just mentioned? Probably not, but that's hardly the point.

I'll also let you all in on another little secret (and I'm not mentioning names so please don't ask). I did a track for a band a year ago for their upcoming record and a major engineer that everyone here is familiar with is going to mix. When they showed that engineer the demo that was done with DFHS/C&V, (and no, they didn't tell him it was samples), he said that the demo sounded great and didn't need much tweaking for the final track that will go out for sale. I think that says it all.