software drums as real drum replacement?

[JohnDavisNYC]

the general public also thinks that brittney spears can sing. so i don't really give a **** what i can get past the 'average' people. i love drum machines. i have owned a ton of them, and think they are awesome. i hate when people try to program 'real' drum parts on them.

I think one very interesting thing about 'artificial music' technology (fake software 'real' drums, autotune, melodyne) is that most new products like that are geared towards making mediocre musicians or singer sound better than they are. you could record a great drummer, who has a touch and can get a sound out of the drums, with 2 57's and mackie pres, and it would sound better than a crap drummer or programming with BFD or whatever... same goes for auto-tune. a truly amazing singer doesn't NEED that (not to say it doesn't get used on good singers, tho)

anyway. i'm just ranting a bit. whatever. interesting thread, tho. i've been thinking alot about this shit alot lately because i'm about to check out some piano software because i don't own a piano, but i'm a bit philosophically opposed to it, especially since i know i could probably record a cheap piano better in my apartment, and it would sound better, being a real instrument.

dunno.

john

[JP11]

Originally Posted by kittonian

This has been an interesting discussion to say the least. I'm impressed by the few who caught that both songs posted were using DFHS/C&V. Some didn't however and that proves my point.

.

Hah, you cheated! (good one thumbsup )

Well, that explains why they both sounded...fake!

The thing that is to the advantage of fake...is that most real drums are so processed and sliced and diced...who even knows what real is anymore...

again, another reason why old music is so much better (to me).

[JP11]

Originally Posted by John Davis

i've been thinking alot about this shit alot lately because i'm about to check out some piano software because i don't own a piano, but i'm a bit philosophically opposed to it, especially since i know i could probably record a cheap piano better in my apartment, and it would sound better, being a real instrument.

dunno.

john

I don't know about a cheap piano, because cheap pianos can be pretty awful, but yeah, the same applies...I've tried a number of sampled pianos...no good...

[bjornson]

Originally Posted by demel

I know that there are midi whizzes that can program some very authentic sounding drum kits. Is sampling technology up to a level yet that a good programmer could trick experienced ears into thinking that they are hearing a real kit? How about if it was buried into a mix?

I'm asking because of a few sessions that I did with a guy doing some hip hop. He asked for one of the songs to have real sounding drums. He wasn't very interesed in hiring a session drummer to do the tracks...so ...we tried the midi route. The drums that ended coming out sounded like....midi playing sampled drum sounds.

Once again I ask...with good programming could it be done?

Thanks.

The original post asked Can you trick experienced ears, not "do you think comic book drums can sometimes serve the song." Hats off to kittonnian for putting something out there but come on dude, my clients wouldn't buy that for one second! I'll do a little rummaging on monday and find that example I spoke of before. At least it's close to convincing.
Nobody else willing to take a shot????

[Rodney Gene]

Originally Posted by bjornson

Nobody else willing to take a shot????

At what? What is the challenge?

Convincing drums?
What does convincing mean?

What are 'experienced' ears?...Engineer? Folks who record / mix acoustic drums on a regular basis...or music lovers or musicians or artists or?

The question is open to interpretation which is why there are so many variables and so many answers.

[demel]

Convincing drums?
What does convincing mean?

What are 'experienced' ears?...Engineer? Folks who record / mix acoustic drums on a regular basis...or music lovers or musicians or artists or?

The question is open to interpretation which is why there are so many variables and so many answers.

My question about tricking a set of experienced ears into believing that sampled drums were real was never meant to be that deep.

The songs that Kittonnian had posted (which were awesome ) were along the lines of what the question was actually about.

And no I don't slip date rape drugs into my girlfriends drink to make her like me. Doing that would get me into alot of shit with my wife! tutt

[bjornson]

My comments aren't meant as a personal challenge, I just remember spending (wasting ) alot of time on this very issue back when my drumming skills far outweighed my programming, engineering and gearslut skills.
Wait.... they might still! I'm seriously interested to hear some of our members most convincing programming skills, especially those who do it all the time.
Once I got a real room, better gear and talent to work with, it became pointless for me if I was trying to create drums that sounded like a real human being had played them. If I come off as hyper passionate about this subject I apologize...
No offense meant. It's just a little pitiful what some engineers think they can pass of as "real sounding drums"
I managed to find the song I was looking for. First I'll share the full story....
This recording started off on 2" with the idea being to transfer a rough drum and bass stereo track down to a crappy yamaha 4424 to lay guitars against at the guitarists home. Since this was the machine he was comfortable with, we did it his way. Somehow he managed to FUBAR his multitrack in the process, leaving me with nothing but his yamaha unit full of guitars and a stereo bass drums dump.
I had taken samples of the same kit a session earlier and loaded it all into my mpc, reprogrammed the original part and played live cymbals over it.
It was all dumped into a pro tools III rig via a 1622 dad (yuck!) and mixed ITB.
How far we've come!

[Rodney Gene]

Originally Posted by demel

My question about tricking a set of experienced ears into believing that sampled drums were real was never meant to be that deep.

...too late

The beauty of the forum topic...it often transmogriforms itself into a completely new (and deeper) discussion...usually for the best, occasionally not!

Originally Posted by bjornson

I'm seriously interested to hear some of our members most convincing programming skills, especially those who do it all the time.
Once I got a real room, better gear and talent to work with, it became pointless for me if I was trying to create drums that sounded like a real human being had played them. If I come off as hyper passionate about this subject I apologize...
No offense meant. It's just a little pitiful what some engineers think they can pass of as "real sounding drums"

Understood bro...and I do share your passion though I would prefer to look at songs on a song by song basis...Not drums or programming. As I mentioined before...How could Mutt (also Mike Shipley) be considered 'quality' producers / engineers if we based any judgment on some the 'realism' of drum sounds that made Def Leppard albums shine?...It is a choice....nothing more or less.

Listen to Back in Black for some of the most insane real drum sounds ever!!

Reb Beach? Ha! That is cool...he was hell of a shredder in the day (probably still is)
Song sounds good...drums sound like drums...sometimes they sound real sometimes fake but I don't question it because they work.

I am finishing up an album for an 80's style musician...we chose samples to use for the record..literally built a kit that would (hopefully) get us into the sound of real drums trying to sound processed...It works for us...and the few tidbits we let-out are getting great response from his small fanbase....
Bottom line...my client is digging the songs...
I will post 2 or 3 snippets for you in a bit...Good or bad makes no difference, it was a choice that was made by me and the client.

I watch a ton of movies...(I watch no TV..only movies) One thing I noticed about a good scene in any movie regardless of the style, is that nothing stands out at you as out of place. In other words, if I find myself 20 minutes into a movie and I am simply just digging the dialogue, scenery, music etc...then I know it is working and the director / editior / etc did thier job.

If a fan / music lover / doesn't question a song...then it works. Any fan can hear a song and think...hey I like this song. The same song and 10 engineer / producers and you will get 10 opinions on how it could / should have been better / different.
It rarely fails.

Peace back at you brother bjornson..

[Doublehelix]

Well, I'm coming into this thread a bit late (been busy all weekend), but I have found it quite interesting as well.

First off, I have to agree with the comments about "whatever works for the song", whether they are "fake" or "real" is immaterial.

Personally, I prefer real drums, although sometimes, I will augment them with a sample or three.

Finally, I have never had good experiences with V-Drums. Sorry. Anytime I have had them in my studio, I have never been happy. I'm sure it is the way the brain had been programmed, as has been mentioned, trying to make fake drums sound real has issues in my opinion.

[captain54]

Originally Posted by kittonian

The point of this discussion was whether you could use software to make samples sound like real drums to the outside world. The answer is yes you can. Will it ever be as amazingly dynamic as a perfect situation like I just mentioned? Probably not, but that's hardly the point.

.

Kittonian....

I've put together a couple of tunes using the exact same software and sample set that you've used....not to compare what you've done vs. what I've done and say one is better than the other, but to make note of the fact that I recorded these tunes KNOWING FULL WELL that these were not real drums and subsequently tried to put together a tune around it...

also I put together these tunes to be used for possibly TV, film drops, backgrounds, soundtracks......where I feel samples and sampled drums make perfect sense

what I'm trying to say and a few others on this board are trying to say, is that it is totally irrelevant as to whether or not you can make sampled drums sound real....

check out "jack it up" & "cv ultrabeat test"

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page...?bandID=293856

[Kenny Gioia]

This idea that the "rest of the world won't notice" is a slippery slope.

Where does it end?

Do I mix songs until they sound good "to me" or til they're good enuff for the "average joe"?

I believe it's patronizing and elitist to make sacrifices because the public "appears" dumber than us.

First of all, they're not. They were smart enuff not to "try" to make a living in music.

Secondly, just because they can't tell you the difference, doesn't mean they don't notice the difference!!

Subliminal messages play a big part in all of this crap, and shortcuts show in the end result.

Sometimes "they" notice it more than even "we" do. We analyze the clues and try to minimize or avoid them. They're just listening which gives them a better perspective.

And the most important factor to me, while mixing a song, is that the mix convey the message of the song while sounding pleasing. I don't want to waste anytime with insecurities of whether the public can tell that there is no "real" drummer.

Peace

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by captain54

what I'm trying to say is that it is totally irrelevant as to whether or not you can make sampled drums sound real....

Why?

[norman_nomad]

Originally Posted by bjornson

My comments aren't meant as a personal challenge, I just remember spending (wasting ) alot of time on this very issue back when my drumming skills far outweighed my programming, engineering and gearslut skills.
Wait.... they might still! I'm seriously interested to hear some of our members most convincing programming skills, especially those who do it all the time.
Once I got a real room, better gear and talent to work with, it became pointless for me if I was trying to create drums that sounded like a real human being had played them. If I come off as hyper passionate about this subject I apologize...
No offense meant. It's just a little pitiful what some engineers think they can pass of as "real sounding drums"
I managed to find the song I was looking for. First I'll share the full story....
This recording started off on 2" with the idea being to transfer a rough drum and bass stereo track down to a crappy yamaha 4424 to lay guitars against at the guitarists home. Since this was the machine he was comfortable with, we did it his way. Somehow he managed to FUBAR his multitrack in the process, leaving me with nothing but his yamaha unit full of guitars and a stereo bass drums dump.
I had taken samples of the same kit a session earlier and loaded it all into my mpc, reprogrammed the original part and played live cymbals over it.
It was all dumped into a pro tools III rig via a 1622 dad (yuck!) and mixed ITB.
How far we've come!

Hey Bjornson,

Your sample sounds great! This clip actually sounds like a real drummer, playing a real kit... and wasn't quantized to 99.8%

Good work.

[captain54]

Originally Posted by Produceher

Why?

Because there might be tunes that need drums that don't sound real....

So you've spent all this time and money to get sampled drums to sound real and they sound like shit in the song anyway because they don't serve the song....

[bunnerabb]

Absolutely!!!!!!!!

The spaces between the hits are just as important as the hits themselves.

Samples don't add that space. Drums are a kit. Not a group of individual hits.

___________________________________________________________________________

EnGioia Drumming

Kenny’s Slightly Overproduced “Perfect” Live Drums
Pop/Rock Volume I

5 CD collection for only $30.00

[JP11]

The whole idea of whether fake or real drums serve the song is all a matter of taste...as far as what sounds real is a different story...I think if someone posted up a file of a real drummer that hasn't been "Pro Tooled", maybe someone like James Brown's drummer, then we'd all (and by all, I mean everyone on earth, now and forever) we'd all be like, "shit! that's some good drumming, sounds ****in' real!"

I've yet to hear fake drums that sound real, and even if they come real close to real, it's still a compromise...and personally, I rarely like fake drums, even if it "serves the song" and even if it's sold millions...sure they have their place, mostly in a novel way...the fact that they've become ubiquitous is not good in my opinion....a trend is one thing, a way of life is...depressing...

As far as Def Leopard goes...barf!

But that's life, some people can't stand Def Leopard, some people can't stand Ringo, some people can't stand Hip Hop...

back to the original question, why not do what hip hoppers usually do when they want "real" drums...take a loop or two, and chop it up (or not).


P.S. I just realized I spelled "Leppard" wrong, silly me...funny how I think that spelling beetles with an "a" is genius, but spelling deaf and leopard wrong just seems ****in' stupid!

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by bunnerabb

My library does contain the spaces. That's the whole point. It's not a bunch of samples. It's a snaphot (16 bars) of a performance.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by captain54

Because there might be tunes that need drums that don't sound real....

True. But isn't it our job to know that in advance.

It's possible that you might stumble onto it but usually you'd envision what you want.

And if you want it to sound like a REAL drummer. I would suggest that that is what you use.

Real and Machine (or programmed) drums are like Salt and Pepper. They both have their uses, but they are not interchangeable.

[JP11]

I'll say this (as if I haven't said enough), if hip hoppers would throw away their god damn drum machines and start playing the drums again for real, I bet we'd see some innovation (which would trickle down to the white people who clearly are lost) instead of the ongoing rut that R&B/hip hop/rap is in...of course, that shit is selling millions, and that's all that matters...

[Harley-OIART]

Just wanted to say to Captain54 :

Great job on those tracks. Cool vibe and drums sounded pretty real for a relaxed listening perspective. (Damn hi-hat always gives the midi drums away.)
the the part @ 2:00 with the bell of the ride sounded great. Very T.V. Knight Rider Era Vibe =)

Thanks for posting those tunes man. Good luck with the business.

-Scott

[bunnerabb]

Originally Posted by Produceher

My library does contain the spaces. That's the whole point. It's not a bunch of samples. It's a snaphot (16 bars) of a performance.

Ahhhhhhh, ok.

Shit, I should probably buy that, actually.

[Glenn Kuras]

Originally Posted by JP11

I'll say this (as if I haven't said enough), if hip hoppers would throw away their god damn drum machines and start playing the drums again for real, I bet we'd see some innovation instead of the ongoing rut that R&B/hip hop/rap is in...of course, that shit is selling millions, and that's all that matters...

Not sure if I want to be that harsh about it, but yea I think if it was done right it could be a big hit!
I don't get to do as much recording as in the past anymore, damn company keeps me busy, but most of the stuff I do is more on the Punk/Garage Rock side of life and there is no room for sample nothing. But I can see how it fits into some kinds of stuff.

[captain54]

Originally Posted by Harley-OIART

Just wanted to say to Captain54 :

Great job on those tracks. Cool vibe and drums sounded pretty real for a relaxed listening perspective. (Damn hi-hat always gives the midi drums away.)
the the part @ 2:00 with the bell of the ride sounded great. Very T.V. Knight Rider Era Vibe =)

Thanks for posting those tunes man. Good luck with the business.

-Scott

I appreciate the feedback....thanks for listening....

[tubesandteles]

I LOVE Drum replacement. Also, I also think mixing loops and real percussion are very cool. I can't really tell how Kenny feels on this subject. However, drum replacement is the best thing that ever happened to me. I'm a horrible drummer, but I don't have access to anyone that is really that great. Sometimes I just want real drums, I don't want to use loops etc. Kenny's sample library is the BEST 30 bucks I have ever spent. I haven't used any of this loops. It is the individual drum hits that are really doing it for me. Sometimes, I sample my own drums over themselves to get cleaner sounding hits. After trying out some of Kenny's drum hits on top of my drum tracks, I fell it LOVE! The kick and snare tracks are SO GOOD. My track in the MP3 section contain's Kenny's samples replaced over my natural hits. http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php3?t=46626
THANKS KENNY!

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by bjornson

I had taken samples of the same kit a session earlier and loaded it all into my mpc, reprogrammed the original part and played live cymbals over it.
It was all dumped into a pro tools III rig via a 1622 dad (yuck!) and mixed ITB.
How far we've come!

Totally! But 'ya know...sounds not withstanding that song actually feels like it was played by a real drummer and not programmed. The real cymbals help a lot!

The way I see it, if we're going to use samples or an electronic kit instead of real drums then they should sound like samples. Ala Def Leppord or Alex Van Halen in the mid-80's. Those drum parts swing & groove because they were played by real drummers. OTOH, they wouldn't be as convincing if the drums were either programed & quantized or they tried to make the samples sound real.

Either way, there's this thing about real drums...the space and moving air that makes it all glue together. Hit a snare drum or the kick and you'll hear the other drums and cymbals ring a little. Samples don't do that.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by tubesandteles

I LOVE Drum replacement. Also, I also think mixing loops and real percussion are very cool. I can't really tell how Kenny feels on this subject. However, drum replacement is the best thing that ever happened to me. I'm a horrible drummer, but I don't have access to anyone that is really that great. Sometimes I just want real drums, I don't want to use loops etc. Kenny's sample library is the BEST 30 bucks I have ever spent. I haven't used any of this loops. It is the individual drum hits that are really doing it for me. Sometimes, I sample my own drums over themselves to get cleaner sounding hits. After trying out some of Kenny's drum hits on top of my drum tracks, I fell it LOVE! The kick and snare tracks are SO GOOD. My track in the MP3 section contain's Kenny's samples replaced over my natural hits. http://gearslutz.com/board/showthread.php3?t=46626
THANKS KENNY!

Thanks for your kind words. I like your song by the way. Quite haunting.

I have no problem with drum replacement.

When I first starting using real drums again (pop music) I started with one mic and added samples to that.

Than I started using two mics for stereo. Still adding samples.

Than I miked up the kick and snare to make it easier for sound replacement.

Now I just mike the whole kit and it sounds great. I usually only add a kick sample now.

Sometimes a snare.

Thanks again.

[natpub]

Using real cymbals and hats helps alot.