This talk of things metal and Hard rock has got me thinking

[FireMoon]

The couple of threads doing the rounds about various metal?Rock albums had my listening to a few tracks to see if i could spot some difference, either qualitative or quantative, between various bands.

Might i add we are talking the more *rad* end of Metal and Heavy rock here. That said, i reckon this probably has ramifications for all of Rocks various contemporary templates..

See thing is, I'm mixing my stuff and then comparing to, relatively, similar sorts of songs. I'm left thinking, Gawd i don't push the top end of guitars a lot and, i seem to like actually having some low mids in my guitars as well. Real low mids not the sort of totally sculpted sounds that you hear on say Hysteria. So, I'm thinking , I am, after all, just a cloth eared pillock, when i stick some Sabbath on.

Now, of all the trad metal albums and as much as i enjoy the early output, Sabbath's heaven and Hell album, to me, is one of the pinnacles of *heavy rock*. Yeah its about Goblins, Elves and other such Tolkienesque bollox, but, not to put too fine a point on it, It chuffin rocks.

What's more Iommi's guitar has real body and lacks that, in your face, upper mid levels that seem to be the hall mark of modern guitars.


So a question... Is heaven and Hell, some crap recording? Or is it actually, as it sounds to me, probably one of the most powerful rock albums made? I'm thinking we hear so much about analogue v digital and Heaven and Hell, to my ears, has that big fat analogue sound.

So, Heaven and hell... deliberately *dark in eq*... or just bloody muffled and badly recorded?

Who decided the dictum that seems to pervade modern rock guitars sounds... "Thou shalt ave bugger all between 400 and 800 HZ?

[robertshaw]

Originally Posted by FireMoon

The couple of threads doing the rounds about various metal?Rock albums had my listening to a few tracks to see if i could spot some difference, either qualitative or quantative, between various bands.

Might i add we are talking the more *rad* end of Metal and Heavy rock here. That said, i reckon this probably has ramifications for all of Rocks various contemporary templates..

See thing is, I'm mixing my stuff and then comparing to, relatively, similar sorts of songs. I'm left thinking, Gawd i don't push the top end of guitars a lot and, i seem to like actually having some low mids in my guitars as well. Real low mids not the sort of totally sculpted sounds that you hear on say Hysteria. So, I'm thinking , I am, after all, just a cloth eared pillock, when i stick some Sabbath on.

Now, of all the trad metal albums and as much as i enjoy the early output, Sabbath's heaven and Hell album, to me, is one of the pinnacles of *heavy rock*. Yeah its about Goblins, Elves and other such Tolkienesque bollox, but, not to put too fine a point on it, It chuffin rocks.

What's more Iommi's guitar has real body and lacks that, in your face, upper mid levels that seem to be the hall mark of modern guitars.


So a question... Is heaven and Hell, some crap recording? Or is it actually, as it sounds to me, probably one of the most powerful rock albums made? I'm thinking we hear so much about analogue v digital and Heaven and Hell, to my ears, has that big fat analogue sound.

So, Heaven and hell... deliberately *dark in eq*... or just bloody muffled and badly recorded?

Who decided the dictum that seems to pervade modern rock guitars sounds... "Thou shalt ave bugger all between 400 and 800 HZ?

I love H&H record. but times were different then, gear was different so it is not going to sound like a modern record. They produced records different then. Everything wasn't as in your face. very very few records were produced like that int he 70's. Today everything is heavily limited and maybe not transferred using modern A/D converters. Maybe it suffers from that aspect. I have that on 8track it sounds great to me. Records back in the 70's had more 'space' and ambience. That record, though it came out in the 80's was really recorded in the 70's. But I agree it is not a modern huge sound we are now used to. But neither are records like Ride the Lightening or Master of Puppets. Those records are more Heaven and Hell than they are what a modern Metal record sounds like.

To me the production is not good or bad. In the case of w/ Sabbath I always just enjoyed their songs and overlooked the production. Heaven and Hell is one of those records I'm on the fence over the production. I loooove Martin Birch in general but I think that record could be bigger. But maybe they were going for more spacial balanced sound as opposed to just cranking everything up in your face. Dio's vocals are amazing on that record. I like the whole record, but again more for its songs as opposed to the sonics. But it is a great produced record from the perspective of song arrangement and over all vibe. It is very mystical and larger than life in a different way. It has that very analog warmth quality.

[in a blue field]

Originally Posted by FireMoon

Now, of all the trad metal albums and as much as i enjoy the early output, Sabbath's heaven and Hell album, to me, is one of the pinnacles of *heavy rock*. Yeah its about Goblins, Elves and other such Tolkienesque bollox, but, not to put too fine a point on it, It chuffin rocks.

just wanted to say, yea it's corny, but some metal is just like that, you cant judge it's metalness based on that! you'll never catch me (note i didnt say it never happens!) listening to manowar or dragonforce... they are corny, but do they rock? undeniably


"heaven and hell" is a tricky album to talk about, kuz it's impossible to get away from the fact that it was the first album without ozzy, AS WELL AS it was kind of the album when people realized that ronnie wasnt just a dude in sabbath... in terms of the EQing for example, my impression would be that, quite simply, it had worked 8 time before! stick with the working formula. sabbath in general really is hard to talk about in this context, kuz like we were basically dancing around in the other threads, say what you want about pinning down when metal actually started, we all know real metal truly began with sabbath, the content is culturally heavier than the composition itself. my opinion is that the feeling you're talking about is kinda similar to what metallica had going for them - the garage sound! my interpretation is simply that they saw how the recordings were turning out differently than what was happening with other bands at the time, and they ran with a good thing.

EDIT ps - the general ambiance of the recordings is very Zep. wouldnt be surprised to find out they were just emulating that. nothing wrong with that at all, just sayin'

[in a blue field]

so, to answer your question () - deliberate

[steveschizoid]

What do you guys think of Ozzy's fairly recent Black Rain?

I think it's great compositionally and sonically. The guitars are meaty, yet not at all muddy or indistinct, present yet not strident. They allow plenty of room for the bass guitar, but do not sound thin or harsh. The drums are great - the kick has a nice warm whump, but it's still has enough of that modern beater sound to cut through, the snare is fat, yet cracks resoundingly, the cymbals caress your ears - perhaps this may not be what the OP was referring to?

[George Necola]

Who decided the dictum that seems to pervade modern rock guitars sounds... "Thou shalt ave bugger all between 400 and 800 HZ?

doesn't translate well on small ipod earplugs..

I think it was slipperman..

[in a blue field]

Originally Posted by steveschizoid

What do you guys think of Ozzy's fairly recent Black Rain?

tbh i havnt heard it yet, i tend to just listen to "shot in the dark" "crazy babies" and "i dont wanna change the world" over n over again