Drum Setup - Positioning, Mic Choice

[tvanveen]

Hey there,

I've been using a spaced pair because...well, I didn't know there was anything else. I think I want to try out a recorderman or Johns setup and have a few questions.

My gut feeling is that maybe a matched pair for the OH is less important in the Johns setup. Agree?

In a 3 mic setup would you prefer LDC's over the SDC's that seem more common in spaced pair setups?

Finally, the inevitable mic choice question...I have the following contenders- AT4060, R84, RE20. I was thinking the RE20 is the obvious choice for FOK, but I'm not sure about the OH's. Maybe another 4060? Do they have to perfectly match?

I'm thinking maybe the figure 8 on the ribbon won't be too hot in our space.

I have a pair of MXL 603's, and a pair of Studio Projects B3's, but this is an area I want to upgrade. I've got maybe $1000, $1200 if I sell a couple of thing to work with.

We're in a fairly lively room with linoleum floors and wood panelled walls. It sounds better then I thought it would, but the ceiling is only about 7 or 8 feet.

We do indie/rock/pop.

Thanks for your help!

tv


http://blog.myspace.com/boxcarcollision

[Slaytex]

I wouldn't be to concerned about having a matched pair, I actually prefer to use 2 diferent mics as overheads since I mainly do rock. I've been doing a lot of M/S micing lately with a KSM44 & AT 4047 along with a beta 52 on kick and a Beyer SDC on the snare in a fairly large room. I'm loving the sound of it (huge) as it makes the drums sound like 1 instrument not 8. If you are going to use 2 room mics I would probably go for a matched pair but if you are 2-3 ft above the set I'd say use two different ones. I tend to put the brighter OH mic on the ride side and the other one over the snare side to eliminate one being overly bright or dark.
Hope this helps.

[r0ck1r0ck2]

what about XY or other stereo setups?

[Jay Kahrs]

I know it's not to going to help much...but there are no real "rules" when it comes to this stuff. Any of those microphones (RE-20 & the like) could work in any spot; it really comes down to what you want to hear & how they're capturing the events in front of them. In a typical minimal mic setup you're placing the mics to take a sonic 'picture' of the drums, and really...that's the general idea behind mic placement anyway.

Think of the mics as a camera.

Given the low ceilings I'd start with the R84 out in front of the kit and try both the RE-20 & 4060 overhead and see what sounds better to you. Since the R84 is figure 8 and figure 8 mics inherently have more low end it's a pretty solid choice. Plus the backside of the mic is going to capture some room tone and I'd rather have good room (or even not so good room) then ceiling reflection. The 4060 is going to have more top and get more sizzle & sparkle from the cymbals while the RE-20 is going to be smoother...but really listen to the snare & toms because the majority of their tone is going to come from that overhead mic. That's a personal taste thing and if you wannna get super crazy you might even want to swap 'em around from song to song. Though...changing out the snare drum and cymbals from song to song usually adds more to the record then switching mics.

Adding tons of EQ and compression doesn't work so you pretty much have one chance to get it right. There's precious little processing you can apply before the sound turns to goo & disintegrates. If you have enough microphones around I'd also place close mics on the kick & snare and print them to separate tracks...you might need 'em later.

[tvanveen]

Thanks guys. I think I'm going to look for a LDC that's a bit different from the 4060, maybe a Mouse or Blueberry, and just start messing around.

[bmsander]

Here's my 2cents:

M/S setup - I tried this in front of my kit a couple times. It sounded cool at first, but then I didn't like it. I felt like it gave me a big sound. Definitely sounded like the "one instrument" thing the previous poster was getting at. I found that frustrating because I guess for that particular song I wanted more control over the "stereo focus" of the kit. You should definitely try it, though. Might be just the right thing.

The Glyn Johns setup - I've tried this quite a few times and think it's really cool. My only advice is to look at this setup and think about what it's going to give you if you go the 3 mic route - No close mic on snare and rack tom. I think this technique might be the wrong way to go if the drummer is weak. Just a thought . . .

Recorderman setup - I've used this one the most for two reasons - 1) It sounds pretty good. 2) It involves actually measuring the distance between the snare, kick, and two mics, so it's kind of "foolproof". I guess I've been too chicken until recently to do spaced pair.

Spaced pair - this is my favorite now. Probably because it's fairly new to me. I guess I just like the way it gives me more control over the "stereo-ness" of the drums.


Anyway, looks like you're in a band like me. You should just make guinnea pigs of yourselves and experiment to find out what you like.

[bmsander]

oh, a couple more things -

I had to do Overheads with a Rhode NTK and a KSM44 for a while. I had the NTK, and my guitarist had the KSM, so that's what we had. Sounds really good, and not something you should worry about.

Also - if you don't like the ribbon in your room, try it 3-5 feet out in front of the kick. I really love the low end of my ribbon mic. It's a cheap Oktava ML52.

Like Jay Kahrs said - "no rules."

[tvanveen]

Originally Posted by bmsander

Recorderman setup - I've used this one the most for two reasons - 1) It sounds pretty good. 2) It involves actually measuring the distance between the snare, kick, and two mics, so it's kind of "foolproof". I guess I've been too chicken until recently to do spaced pair.

Anyway, looks like you're in a band like me. You should just make guinnea pigs of yourselves and experiment to find out what you like.

Yeah, that's what I'm planning, just trying to get an clue before I start doing it or spending money.

Regarding measuring the distance for the overheads...aren't you supposed to do that it the Johns setup as well? I think the snare OH and the floor tom are supposed to be equidistant from the snare. From what I've read, it seems like the Johns and Recorderman are pretty similar, just that you swing the "shoulder" mic over next to the floor tom.

Anyway, it seems easy enough to try both, as well as throw up a snare mic just in case, so I'll be trying it tomorrow assuming my new Audiofire is functional.

[Glenn Kuras]

Just to throw in my 2 cents.. I bought the Earthworks drum kit. It really takes the guessing game out of it. I still do put a sm57 on the snare.... here is the link http://www.earthworksaudio.com/29.html

[Bishbashbosh]

Originally Posted by myfipie

Just to throw in my 2 cents.. I bought the Earthworks drum kit. It really takes the guessing game out of it. I still do put a sm57 on the snare.... here is the link http://www.earthworksaudio.com/29.html

Hi.... I'm really interested in the Earthworks set..... Are you using the overheads as spaced pair, or one of the other 3 mic techniques?

[Glenn Kuras]

As a spaced pair