Sinatra's Vocal Chain

[Mr. PC]

Originally Posted by blim

The thing about Sinatra was not so much that he had an amazing voice, but that his phrasing was so great. The guy practically invented modern phrasing.

Wha???!!!!

Frank's voice was unendingly fantastic. Rich, deep tone. A bit of a raspy edge, wind to spare. He could turn on a dime.


His vocal gift was monumental. Pair this with exquisite phrasing and then you have the greatest singer of American song ever, no contest.

PC

[ianbryn11]

Originally Posted by mikecorwin

http://www.coutant.org/u47/sinatra.mp3

wow....

[butterfly]

I'm listening to the outakes on the link that was posted a few pages back.

The room sounds amazing. No comp, no reverb, no nothing but Frank, the mic, and the room

......yes just had a listen to these too, they are fantastic.........amazing how when the vocal comes in it sounds so big and full..........yet he's clearly back from the mic, I think in comparison to a lot of swing stuff to-day where the vocalist is close miced, the former approach is far preferable. However it does sound like there is a verb on his voice as well as the room ? also wondering how they dealt with his vocal in the mix.....did they ride the faders or limit in any way? or would the final takes have been balanced on the floor between Frank and the engineers?

[butterfly]

Wha???!!!!

Frank's voice was unendingly fantastic. Rich, deep tone. A bit of a raspy edge, wind to spare. He could turn on a dime.


His vocal gift was monumental. Pair this with exquisite phrasing and then you have the greatest singer of American song ever, no contest

..........I think blim makes a good point, I think there were def better voices around..and to be honest increasingly as his career progressed, I think Mr Sinatra took less care in maintaining his voice, he was after all an entertainer first and foremost as well as an icon FIlm work, interviews, carousing with the rat pack, cigarettes, booze.....are all going to compromise, vocal health, tone, range etc The early recordings I think, where the tone is like many singers of that period a little more bel canto are fantastic, this was someone after all who was determined to try and match the fantastic breathcontrol of his mentor Tommy dorsey and approached that task with characteristic focus and determination. However I think Mr sinatra realised that what set him apart from other "singers" wasn't tone or range or dynamic cotrol or even perfection of pitch....in all these areas there were others who were superior, hell Sammy davis jnr would have sung Sinatra under the table in a pure-ly "singing" competition. Clearly though he spoke to a whole generation.....you know the guy who comes home from the office after a hard day and pours himself a stiff one. What better soundtrack to his imagination than Sinatra's slightly dry, unsentimental way with a lyric and an unashamedly "masculine" persona. On a side note a different perspective on the american songbook can be found with Gordon Macrae's Capitol recordings....he's a different singer no doubt but I think the melanlcholy timbre he brings to "My funny valentine" and "Spring is here" are pretty much unsurpassed....of course he can't swing like sinatra but the arrangements support his singing perfectly.

[Bob Olhsson]

All I know is what I was told by Wally Heider and Voyle Gilmore.

Wally recorded Sinatra at the Sands and was present for most of his recording sessions at United Western. I was very surprised to hear Sinatra used a handheld 546. An SM56 is a black 546 and an SM 57 is the same mike without the built in stand mount.

Voyle produced Sinatra's Capitol sessions before his promotion to head of A&R. He told me that most were recorded at Radio Recorders Annex and I know from other people who worked at that studio that the vocal mikes of choice at Radio were the RCA 77 and 44. When I asked about all of the U47s and 251s in the pictures, Voyle responded that they were used for photo sessions.

Certainly people are free to believe anything they like but I'm relating what I was told by two people who couldn't have been more directly involved with making Frank Sinatra's recordings.

[loujudson]

All very interesting, and I'm certainly not arguing, just curious. In this image collection, there are shures and also a Sony in the photos - I was just wondering if they used the shure for regular shows and the C-37A for the album recordings... Only curiosity!

SINATRA.COM | GALLERY | Sinatra at the Sands, 1966.

Lou

[chris319]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

All I know is what I was told by Wally Heider and Voyle Gilmore.

Wally recorded Sinatra at the Sands and was present for most of his recording sessions at United Western. I was very surprised to hear Sinatra used a handheld 546. An SM56 is a black 546 and an SM 57 is the same mike without the built in stand mount.

Voyle produced Sinatra's Capitol sessions before his promotion to head of A&R. He told me that most were recorded at Radio Recorders Annex and I know from other people who worked at that studio that the vocal mikes of choice at Radio were the RCA 77 and 44. When I asked about all of the U47s and 251s in the pictures, Voyle responded that they were used for photo sessions.

Certainly people are free to believe anything they like but I'm relating what I was told by two people who couldn't have been more directly involved with making Frank Sinatra's recordings.

Most interesting. Thanks for posting that, Bob.

I'm embarrassed to say that for years I lived just a short walk from United Western and an even shorter walk from Capitol Records. United Western is such a nondescript, nothing building but it amazes me to hear about some of the songs that were done there.

[newyorkbrass]

Originally Posted by Empty Planet

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I think the tunes were more arranged than mixed to feature the vocals. No amount of mixing is going to create that kind of spaciousness, particularly if instruments are competing for the same range. Listen to the way the horns and strings get out of the way of the vox when Frank comes in. No accident, that. Particularly with Nelson Riddle's work, it's a real ballet. God knows, modern rock bands could learn a tip or two from listening to Riddle arrangements. I'm with the OP: What a marvelous thing to hear those tunes.


Cheers.

That is so true. Space is the final frontier
I know a lot of producers and mix guys who will mercilessly cut stuff out to create this space. A song arrives at the mix with 18 guitar tracks, 10 synth, 20 horn/brass tracks, 10 violin tracks, drums, percussion, and not to forget cowbell. And then they all are arranged to play in the midrange and parallel the voice.

Look at the Japan concert:



and this one



He sound just as good as a U47 or whatnot - IT IS THE VOICE!

Incidentally our lead trumpeter Tony Gorruso is playing principal trumpet on these. Gosh he is sooo young here

[newyorkbrass]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

Exactly.

The older engineers and musicians I've asked seem to agree that a lot went to hell when headphones were introduced.

Since we started using the cheapest sony in-ear walkman/mp3 buds everythign sounds a lot tighter and more musical. They dont block *anything* from the room.

I would recommend trying that

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by newyorkbrass

...I would recommend trying that

I can't recommend eliminating headphones and playing to an acoustic balance highly enough. Headphones screw up both the dynamics and pitch of even the best session players because they are playing to an artificial balance. It just means not being able to go back and punch in mistakes by individual performers.

The benefit is little or no need for compression or eq. to make things balance and incredible mix translation between different listening enviornments.

[stampen]

Where the mid to late 50s Capitol recordings were actually made couldn't be that hard to find out. Some musicians are still around.

/A

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by stampen

Where the mid to late 50s Capitol recordings were actually made couldn't be that hard to find out. Some musicians are still around.

/A

See post #156 from Bob O.

Lou

[Johnkenn]

Originally Posted by mikecorwin

http://www.coutant.org/u47/sinatra.mp3

So...that's so good it's freaking depressing. THAT is what I think of when I think 47 - but maybe I've been wrong all this time - maybe that sound is Sinatra...and Dean Martin...and Nat King Cole...

I don't know, I just don't think it would have been as big and thick on a Peluso...but maybe I'm wrong...

[McPhaul]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

All I know is what I was told by Wally Heider and Voyle Gilmore.

Wally recorded Sinatra at the Sands and was present for most of his recording sessions at United Western. I was very surprised to hear Sinatra used a handheld 546. An SM56 is a black 546 and an SM 57 is the same mike without the built in stand mount.

Voyle produced Sinatra's Capitol sessions before his promotion to head of A&R. He told me that most were recorded at Radio Recorders Annex and I know from other people who worked at that studio that the vocal mikes of choice at Radio were the RCA 77 and 44. When I asked about all of the U47s and 251s in the pictures, Voyle responded that they were used for photo sessions.

Certainly people are free to believe anything they like but I'm relating what I was told by two people who couldn't have been more directly involved with making Frank Sinatra's recordings.

Can't say enough how much I appreciate your posts. thumbsup

Nothing like getting it straight from the source.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by vernier

Yep, Frank, mic, room, tube mixer and tube Ampex.
. . . . . ------> YouTube - All of Me (Frank Sinatra)
..

The sound of that studio is pretty unmistakable from a zillion classic records recorded in Hollywood during the '30s, '40s and '50s.

I understand the console was a Western Electric so RCA must have taken their gear with them when they sold the studio to Radio Recorders. Radio Recorders supposedly had the first Ampex 200 in Hollywood because this was where Bing Crosby worked. I understand that machine ended up with custom electronics at the Mastering Lab as their 15/30 1/4" playback deck. Talk about gear with a serious vibe!

I've had to piece what little I know about Radio Recorders Annex together from a lot of different sources so this may not be entirely accurate. The studio was located at 1016 North Sycamore Avenue in Hollywood.

[stampen]

Originally Posted by loujudson

See post #156 from Bob O.

Lou

Yeah I read that but I thought of first hand info. As confirmation, or other...

/A

[chris319]

RCA must have taken their gear with them when they sold the studio to Radio Recorders

So Radio Recorders was originally owned by RCA? Did they then move into the RCA building at Sunset and Ivar?

Radio Recorders still exists and as best I can determine it is now called "Weeping Buddha Studios".

Scotty Moore - Radio Recorders

The annex on Sycamore may still exist; I'll have to drive by and check it out.

RecordPlant

United Western at 6000 Sunset underwent an extensive/expensive remodeling and became EastWest Studios, but I am confused because I see addresses for EastWest Studios at 6000 Sunset and 1617 Cosmo.

What was the name of the studio on Melrose?

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by chris319

So Radio Recorders was originally owned by RCA? Did they then move into the RCA building at Sunset and Ivar?

It was built by Victor in 1929 and apparently sold to Radio, which was probably the world's first independent studio, in 1949. I don't think they had any LA studio until the '60s and just rented the Annex. This looks pretty good: Scotty Moore - Radio Recorders

My understanding is that the Annex studio was bulldozed.

[creegstor]

I think this is Frank's finest moment. Ever. And I think he knows it too if you see his face at the end. It's from a live tv special with Ella and Jobim. Riddle arranged.

[loujudson]

Just got a notice from Mosaic and True Blue music - all 91 Sinatra singles from Capital years:

Frank Sinatra

Probably worth $50...

Lou

[Sarusan]

Sadly I happened to pass the Radio Recorders building this evening. The real estate signs have finally come down and there are now signs for another business that has moved in and taken over the complex. The building was given protected status a few years ago when they changed the name back to RR but that only applied to the outer structure. Very sad. No more music there.

That said, when I worked there 9 years ago when it was still Studio 56, there was very little of the original studios still intact. The control room for Studio E (formerly Studio B) was used for tape storage and there was wall treatment that you'd see in a soundstage- chicken wire over white padding. There's a picture of this on the Scotty Moore page. The front room was good but it was modernized with no history in sight. Elvis was celebrated and talked about but the rest of the history there was kind of lost on everyone. For me, just the Charlie Parker records that were done there would be enough to make it a monument. But of course even that was just a drop in the bucket.

[Bob Olhsson]

Radio Recorders may have been the first recording studio that wasn't owned by record label or broadcaster.

When radio stars wanted to make movies in Hollywood, they needed somewhere to record their radio shows ahead of time so that they could distribute them to the stations or networks in time for their scheduled broadcasts. They also needed to be able to work around their schedules at the movie studios. Radio Recorders filled that void.

[airmate]

Not that it makes much of a sonic difference - but aren't the U47's at Capitol actually U48's?

Here's a photo I took during my visit at Capitol last year:

[airmate]

...and here are the other two suspects:

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by airmate

...and here are the other two suspects:

Nice! these babies are workhorses, and show it.

Know what the switch on the 44 does?

[Bob Olhsson]

Most of the studios I visited during the mid 1960s had both U-47s and U-48s.

Remember that most studios had previously been using RCA 77s and 44s for the same things they'd be using their new Neumann mikes on.

[bof]

Originally Posted by creegstor

I think this is Frank's finest moment. Ever. And I think he knows it too if you see his face at the end.....

Or, alternatively, he could be silently cursing himself for getting the lyrics wrong on a live broadcast!

[airmate]

Originally Posted by ETM Dude

Don't forget some of the best echo chambers in town... at EastWest (formerly United Western/Cello) there's a chamber now dubbed The Sinatra Chamber.

Of course... here's one of the Capitol chambers...

You have to climb down some 30 feet on step irons. It's pretty adventurous to get down there.

[loujudson]

Originally Posted by airmate

Of course... here's one of the Capitol chambers...

You have to climb down some 30 feet on step irons. It's pretty adventurous to get down there.

I LOVE this - as fascinating as the Abbey road pictures. Keep 'em coming! Or give us a link to the collection of photos. hmmm?

Lou

[u b k]

Originally Posted by Johnkenn

I don't know, I just don't think it would have been as big and thick on a Peluso...but maybe I'm wrong...

I think if you toasted it gently with an old tube pre and limiter and printed thru a tube console to a tube tape machine with a pultec or 12 thrown in for good measure, it'd be pretty big and thick.


Gregory Scott - ubk