The End of the Neve Clones!!!!

[dbbubba]

I can't argue with you Geoff.
You were there!
I have read your Neve model numbers and timeline pages on your website.
I kinda' paraphrased in listing models and never really made my point truthfully.

I realize that my timeline isn't that accurate, but my point was going to be that the 'clone" units don't generally copy the designs that came after Rupert sold the name.
It doesn't seem that Neve was very interested in the designs that are now cloned and coveted until quite recently.

Do they even really own anything pertaining to those designs?
Did Rupert sell the name AND assets that might have included past designs?

You and I have discussed the 8108s and 8128s before.
I lived with a 8128 for years (the one that Brian McCurry drug out there to Hollywood.) I tried to talk him out of it! He did get it really cheap, though.

It was sorta' mine before he bought it from the studio I worked for.
That poor thing was in the room I used 9 to 5 for five years.
It was HORRIBLY abused by the time I "inherited it" so don't blame me for the shape it was in! I treated it with respect and did A LOT of maintenance on it.
The owners and management of the company HATED that console and the room that it was in. They would barely allow my ANY budget for restoration and upkeep of that console. Mainly because the room it was in generated so little money compared to the other rooms that were bringing in lot's of revenue.
It was radio/TV audio house and that was a music room.
It was pretty much for me because I did production music, a minor owner and the interns for working for free.
It was "given" to me in order for me to keep an eye on it and see that it was not completely abused.
Still, I couldn't be there 24 hours a day, so...
I do know the people responsible for wrecking it though!
It wasn't the interns either!

[Geoff_T]

Hi

I'm not privy to the exact details of the original Bonochord contracts but I have collegues that were. As I mentioned on Fletcher's PSW forum, Mr Neve owned a considerable amount of land behind the Neve factory (a cartoon on my Neve pictures page gives a rough idea...) and it's ponderable that, had he sold this land earlier, it would have paid off the huge debts that were a burden back then and maybe have changed the course of the company with him still as Managing Director.

One has to keep reminding folk that Neve had an R & D lab that designed modules and consoles and Mr Neve's involvement was minimal after around 1970. He was the Managing Director of the company.
Anyway, Bonochord not only had all rights to the Neve name and products but Mr Neve, when he finally left in 1975, was bound to not make a similar product for ten years... the 1985 formation of Focurite.

I do know, because he advertised them in Studio Sound, that Mr Neve produced a console similar to a 5302 by a company he called Nevenco. I also know that this upset the current Neve owners and he was summoned and told to cease production. He did stop making Nevenco consoles but later made portable consoles under the less obvious name of BTS....

http://www.auroraaudio.net/aa_html/n...0was%20BTS.JPG

[tengu]

10 years, gee that is a long time.

That must have been depressing for the guy.

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by tengu

10 years, gee that is a long time.

That must have been depressing for the guy.

Hi

I can't speak for his feelings but it must have been a relief to have the debts paid off, in my humble opinion...

Ten years is a standard contract for this kind of thing and he was kept busy with a school of audio and those BTS consoles.

[dbbubba]

Didn't he spend some time down in Central America during that time as well?
I seem to recall an artical in a magazine in the mid to later '80s about how Rupert assisted several small radio stations and such down there. Fixing their gear and stuff.
It also seemed that it was sort of a missionary endeavor.

I will say this about him...
He sure has no interest in talking about the older consoles that bear his name.
He was at a local pro/recording equipment dealer's shop and I talked to him for a minute. He's quite reserved.
I mentioned that I sat behind an 8128 on a daily basis and his response was not much more than "Hmmmm, really...."

He was there in support of the Amek stuff he had designed, so I guess that waxing endlessly about what really amounted to another company's product instead of the one he was supporting would have been wrong.

I have a life long buddy who lives in Wimberly, TX who I need to go visit.
I need to make a visit to him and visit Neve's new company down there.

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

Didn't he spend some time down in Central America during that time as well?
I seem to recall an artical in a magazine in the mid to later '80s about how Rupert assisted several small radio stations and such down there. Fixing their gear and stuff.
It also seemed that it was sort of a missionary endeavor.

I will say this about him...
He sure has no interest in talking about the older consoles that bear his name.
He was at a local pro/recording equipment dealer's shop and I talked to him for a minute. He's quite reserved.
I mentioned that I sat behind an 8128 on a daily basis and his response was not much more than "Hmmmm, really...."

He was there in support of the Amek stuff he had designed, so I guess that waxing endlessly about what really amounted to another company's product instead of the one he was supporting would have been wrong.

I have a life long buddy who lives in Wimberly, TX who I need to go visit.
I need to make a visit to him and visit Neve's new company down there.

Hi

I've probably only shared about three sentences with Rupert Neve in my lifetime. I hardly saw him when I was at Neve in the drawing office but he came back in the early 80's to buy an old 5402 frame that was in the R & D lab and sell it to a Swedish client.

I met him at an AES and told him of a guy in Hollywood that owns his original Philips Classical music console .... the very first transistor Neve console from the mid 60's.... and that it was still in regular use.

He replied, somewhat disdainly, "Tell him to buy a (Amek) 9098."

And that was about an early console that he designed... not the 81 series after he left.

I suppose his past work was his greatest competitor!

[dbbubba]

That was about the extent of our conversation, too!

That's OK though.
He makes up for the folks that TALK TOO MUCH!

The quiet guys usually soak everything in.

[asagaai]

[quote=Fletcher;460223] Our "cloner" friend will probably prevail in court... on the condition that the person/company challenged has a couple hundred thousand dollars to throw at the project... because if they don't, then in all likelyhood it will be pragmatic for anyone challenged to alter the aspect identified... of course, if they decided to go the distance and ran with a counter suit [costing an extra couple hundred grand] then it is probably that they would not only prevail, but profit in a big way from a frivolous action... or not [which is why I'm a recording engineer and not a lawyer].


The problem with this analysis is that it assumes that a Plaintiff has a triable case to begin with. In the absence of patent/copyright or passing off breaches, or some other form of statutory breach under specific trade practices legilsation, it may be that AMS Neves proceedings are an abuse of process and open to attack and dismissal proceedings at the outset for not having a "triable case".

Further, insofar as Fletcher referred to injunctive relief, Courts generally before granting injunctive relief must be persusaded that there is a triable case with good prospects, and will counter weigh that against damage caused to Respondent.

Unless there are particular passing off or other forms of unconscionable conduct on foot subject to statutory provisions that are not privy to the posters so far, this alleged litigation appears to be on quicksand


Although, what is interesting is that AMS Neve by selling gear all around the world (as would the cloners) be in a position to choose to institute proceedings in a country whose laws best advance their litigation aims.

There would then be litigation arguing that the "chosen" forum is not appropriate, and the cloner may argue that another forum is more appropriate, even before arguing about whether there is a triable issue.........


GJ
Newcastle/OZ

[midigod]

This thread's over two years old, and still nothing's happened.

[dbbubba]

If anything was going to happen a lot of boutique manufacturers would be in trouble by now!

[insomnio]

Originally Posted by joeybaggadonuts

felcher loves a male to male d to a turnaround after a good bowl of chowdah. don't ya felchah? how do you like em apples aeaeah Felchah? merry christmas felchah you Masswipe!

Wow, I never thought someone was going to resurrect this thread...
Did you notice the year before posting? haha

[TonyBelmont]

What a strange thread revival.

[orksnork]

that's what i thought...
and funny enough how the conversation carries on like it isn't years later...

you'd think at least someone would point and go

"ha! looks like that lawsuit really worked out"

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by insomnio

Wow, I never thought someone was going to resurrect this thread...
Did you notice the year before posting? haha

Hi

Yes, me neither and I don't believe the original thread topic is relevant anymore.

I just posted, as per usual, when I saw an inaccurate Neve historical fact pop up!

[analogtodd]

I'm suprised the lawsuit didn't go further... remember when Leo Fender sued everybody for copying his guitars and amps and he received 84 billion dollars for it and he retired to the South Pacific and spent the rest of his life getting drunk on coconut juice???

/or I did I just dream that up???

[MIKEHARRIS]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

This is tough to know where you draw the line. I would think this might only apply to something like a Brent Averill that uses the actual Neve parts.

I think Brent Averill may be the only one safe if hes' using original Neve parts

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by MIKEHARRIS

I think Brent Averill may be the only one safe if hes' using original Neve parts

Hi

Not wanting to be too nit-picky, but what parts do you refer to? The transformers aren't made by Neve and the current ones used by both AMS-Neve and cloners are not the same ones used in vintage Neve modules.

The knobs were made by the plastic moulding department of Marconi Instruments and were not "Neve knobs" per ce.

So, other than the metalwork and the pcbs, most parts were also third party manufactured.

Nowadays the cloners clone the clone...

Crazy old world, eh?

[insomnio]

Originally Posted by Geoff_T

Hi

Not wanting to be too nit-picky, but what parts do you refer to? The transformers aren't made by Neve and the current ones used by both AMS-Neve and cloners are not the same ones used in vintage Neve modules.

The knobs were made by the plastic moulding department of Marconi Instruments and were not "Neve knobs" per ce.

So, other than the metalwork and the pcbs, most parts were also third party manufactured.

Nowadays the cloners clone the clone...

Crazy old world, eh?

Hmm, I thought Brent used original parts from old consoles when he began. Is that true?

[Geoff_T]

Originally Posted by insomnio

Hmm, I thought Brent used original parts from old consoles when he began. Is that true?

Hi

Truth is relative to time.... and the same applies to other cloners.

In other words, they may have done so back when.... but not in the current 1073/1084 recreations.

[PDC]

Originally Posted by Midlandmorgan

I am NOT a lawyer...but...

I think if these rumors are true, they won't stand a chance...Look at the guitar industry: how many Strat and Tele clones are there? I believe the copyright infringement only comes to play when the visual AND performance aspects of gear was obviously designed to be an imitation, with or without intent to deceive...

Anyone remember the "Fedner" guitars? THAT was a copyright infringement on design.... The (fill in every guitar maker on Earth) version of the Telecaster or Strat is not, even though the parts are 100% interchangeable with the originals...

It will be interesting to watch, nonetheless....

K

Exactly. Besides that, wouldn't Neve have to prove that revenues were lost as a result? They weren't manufacturing the good stuff for a long time, replacing it with crap for the most part. How long were the models cloned off of the market?

What is the difference between a full production replica and a 99% refurb by a non-Neve shop legally?

[B.Santillan]

Originally Posted by Bob Ross

Didn't Gibson just successfully sue Paul Reed Smith to stop making the Singlecut model, an instrument whose visual and performance aspects resembled a Les Paul only to a blind & deaf non-musician?

They temporarily stopped making them while they were in litigation. They now make them again.

[6dyslexicelephnt]

i think of something else when I hear "the N word"...

[carlheinz]

Originally Posted by TonyBelmont

As Jules posted in another thread, AMS/ Neve may be preparing to take action against all of the clone manufacturer's...

I sign of a company on its death bed.

[CorkyTart]

Sounds like an attempt to make people rush to buy gear. Maybe FORD can go after Toyota, Mitsubishi BMW Mercedes etc for copying their design. It's the same logic....