Drum Sound!!

[Dos]

Here's my problem:

I'm recording drums through my Digi 001 straight into pro tools. I'm using Sony c800s on the kik, snare and toms and two U47s as overheads.
The kit is DW and i really like the sound of it in the room (my bathroom).
I run the overheads through a couple of Behringer MDX2600 compressors just to really squash them so i can get good level to tools, I still use 16bit, I was told it has a much more transient revealing sound, I think this is true.

Anyway, I just cant seem to get the drums right. I want them to sound professional, kind of transparent with a nice round hi end?!!?

I was told on another forum that it might be my monitoring, so for christmas my father had an accoustician in to build a room inside a room and i got some genelec 1038s (which i think sound a little brittle around 40hz) but they're good, so it's not my monitoring!

Any ideas?!!?
I'd really appreciate any help with this.

[jbuntz]

Tadpole? Are you recording the beach boys again?

[THE GEEK]

Originally Posted by Dos

Here's my problem:

I'm recording drums through my Digi 001 straight into pro tools. I'm using Sony c800s on the kik, snare and toms and two U47s as overheads.
The kit is DW and i really like the sound of it in the room (my bathroom).
I run the overheads through a couple of Behringer MDX2600 compressors just to really squash them so i can get good level to tools, I still use 16bit, I was told it has a much more transient revealing sound, I think this is true.

Anyway, I just cant seem to get the drums right. I want them to sound professional, kind of transparent with a nice round hi end?!!?

I was told on another forum that it might be my monitoring, so for christmas my father had an accoustician in to build a room inside a room and i got some genelec 1038s (which i think sound a little brittle around 40hz) but they're good, so it's not my monitoring!

Any ideas?!!?
I'd really appreciate any help with this.

Those Sonys are great! I got a matched pair too. I recommend u use it for the snare and HH!

I dont own that Behringer Compressor but usually their stuff is pretty high end, so that cant be the problem!

16 bit is great man, I even record at 12 bit. I think u get less quantzation distortion that way.

Hmmmmm....I guess u shouldn't record the kick in the bathroom. Dont get me room, i think recording drums in the bathroom is a brilliant idea, howver the kick might sound too hollow in there.

Try to get the drummer to play the kick seperately in another room with less directivity. That should also sort ur high end problem.

[Dos]

Originally Posted by jbuntz

Tadpole? Are you recording the beach boys again?

Explain yourself Buntz? Is this a joke?

[Toad]

I was having the same sort of problem until I put an MDX2600 on each mic!

[Dos]

Originally Posted by THE GEEK

Those Sonys are great! I got a matched pair too. I recommend u use it for the snare and HH!

I dont own that Behringer Compressor but usually their stuff is pretty high end, so that cant be the problem!

16 bit is great man, I even record at 12 bit. I think u get less quantzation distortion that way.

Hmmmmm....I guess u shouldn't record the kick in the bathroom. Dont get me room, i think recording drums in the bathroom is a brilliant idea, howver the kick might sound too hollow in there.

Try to get the drummer to play the kick seperately in another room with less directivity. That should also sort ur high end problem.

Thanks for your help geek.
But i don't think the kick sounds hallow though, I should have mentioned that the bathroom is completely tiled and mirrored so its gives the kick that really live/dead sound that alot of records have.
I'll have to try that 12bit tip, do i need to buy a limiter to switch the impedance to 12bit?
Cranesong limiters/comps look really nice and i heard they sound great, should i get one of these?

[THE GEEK]

Originally Posted by Toad

I was having the same sort of problem until I put an MDX2600 on each mic!

U shouldn't forget that not everyone here is rich (or has rich parents). So your suggestion is not very helpful!

[syra]

He's Back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[THE GEEK]

Originally Posted by Dos

Thanks for your help geek.
But i don't think the kick sounds hallow though, I should have mentioned that the bathroom is completely tiled and mirrored so its gives the kick that really live/dead sound that alot of records have.
I'll have to try that 12bit tip, do i need to buy a limiter to switch the impedance to 12bit?
Cranesong limiters/comps look really nice and i heard they sound great, should i get one of these?

Man, your mixing some facts up....
the bit depths defines how high frequencies you can record. It has nothing to do with Impendance (I think Impedance is power)

I never heard of Cransong.....

Maybe the problem is in your reverb then. Are u using D-Verb???

[Dos]

Originally Posted by syra

He's Back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you talking to me, Syra?

[swankdoc]

Go through your entire chain. Have you replaced the tubes on the behringer? Do you have Monster cable from point to point? Did you use the magic marker on the edges of your CD's? Also, dont forget to clean the capsules on your U47s, they might have some dust on them. Might be a converter problem. Try recording at 24 /196. That makes things really open up.
Hope this helps.

[THE GEEK]

Originally Posted by Dos

Are you talking to me, Syra?

That's the problem with these forums.
Too many people who think they know it all and they just chime in to talk rubbish.
Just ignore them....


dfegad Syra

[Dos]

Originally Posted by THE GEEK

Man, your mixing some facts up....
the bit depths defines how high frequencies you can record. It has nothing to do with Impendance (I think Impedance is power)

I never heard of Cransong.....

Maybe the problem is in your reverb then. Are u using D-Verb???

Never heard of Cranesong?!?! and you call yourself an engineer? You haven't got a clue. lol

and yes I'm using DVerb, do you know how do i get it to record through DVerb so I can save processing power later on?

[THE GEEK]

Originally Posted by Dos

Never heard of Cranesong?!?! and you call yourself an engineer? You haven't got a clue. lol

and yes I'm using DVerb, do you know how do i get it to record through DVerb so I can save processing power later on?

You need a second PC. Thats how i do it. I go first into my laptop, then do some processing like gating and flang/phasing and the out of the laptop in my PC.

[Dos]

Originally Posted by swankdoc

Go through your entire chain. Have you replaced the tubes on the behringer? Do you have Monster cable from point to point? Did you use the magic marker on the edges of your CD's? Also, dont forget to clean the capsules on your U47s, they might have some dust on them. Might be a converter problem. Try recording at 24 /196. That makes things really open up.
Hope this helps.

Listen swank doc, if you want to keep the content of your bllsck, then you should use less sarcasm.
Magic marker on the CDs eh???!?!? Funny guy!!
And yes as a matter of fact i did replace the tubes on the behringers

[Dos]

Originally Posted by THE GEEK

You need a second PC. Thats how i do it. I go first into my laptop, then do some processing like gating and flang/phasing and the out of the laptop in my PC.

Cool, i have another G5 that I've never really used, I prefer the sound of my G4, maybe I should hook it up to use those DVerbs.
How can I connect them?

[THE GEEK]

Originally Posted by Dos

Listen swank doc, if you want to keep the content of your bllsck, then you should use less sarcasm.
Magic marker on the CDs eh???!?!? Funny guy!!
And yes as a matter of fact i did replace the tubes on the behringers

What did u replace them with? With other tubes? Maybe u should not use tubes at all. Build them out and test it!

[THE GEEK]

Originally Posted by Dos

Cool, i have another G5 that I've never really used, I prefer the sound of my G4, maybe I should hook it up to use those DVerbs.
How can I connect them?

MIDI

Its best for good audio quality.

[Dos]

Originally Posted by THE GEEK

What did u replace them with? With other tubes? Maybe u should not use tubes at all. Build them out and test it!

I'll try that, but i think it'll sound a little distorted.
When you say build them out, i assume you mean take them out completely and try that yes??
Will this work?
Have you done it?

[THE GEEK]

Originally Posted by Dos

I'll try that, but i think it'll sound a little distorted.
When you say build them out, i assume you mean take them out completely and try that yes??
Will this work?
Have you done it?

Yes, thats what I mean. I havent tried it but the tubes are only there to colour the sound. They make it sound warmer. But since you're recording in a bathroom u wont need them. Maybe they are messing it all up.

Samson are making nice compressors as well. Maybe u should borrow one of them and try it.
I love going to big studios where all that nice stuff is already there.

[Dos]

Originally Posted by THE GEEK

Yes, thats what I mean. I havent tried it but the tubes are only there to colour the sound. They make it sound warmer. But since you're recording in a bathroom u wont need them. Maybe they are messing it all up.

Samson are making nice compressors as well. Maybe u should borrow one of them and try it.
I love going to big studios where all that nice stuff is already there.

Do you really think they could be messing the sound up?
Ok, I lied earlier cause i was pssed off at that other guy I didn't really take the tubes out of the behringers, how do I get them out?
If it'll make those sony c800s sound better then i'll do it. The guy in the shop told me they were the best mic and they'd make my recordings sound great, they were quite expensive too, I shouild have known Sony don't really make pro mics.

[swankdoc]

Originally Posted by Dos

Listen swank doc, if you want to keep the content of your bllsck, then you should use less sarcasm.
Magic marker on the CDs eh???!?!? Funny guy!!
And yes as a matter of fact i did replace the tubes on the behringers

Before you call something "sarcasm" utfsf:
http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=AP-CDSL

Oh, and when you threaten me like that again, please find me and do it to my face.

[chimpleton]

Damn, is it april 1st again already? Where did this year go?........

[warhead]

The problem is, the gate on your reverb returns isn't tube. Also, you should convert your G5 power supply to all tube (rectify baby) and the warmth will literally explode.

Oh, and high end AC cables get a lot of good talk around here. They can make ALL the difference, your bloom will be bloomier, and you'll be able to say things like "my black is so black compared to your black which is grey" and the soundstage will (I believe this is the correct term) blossom?

War

[max cooper]

I'd say back that hihat mic up a little bit; like about four miles. I get great results with this rig:

[RainbowStorm]

Originally Posted by Dos

Here's my problem:
Anyway, I just cant seem to get the drums right. I want them to sound professional, kind of transparent with a nice round hi end?!!?

Sounds familiar. Each drum needs its own treatment. I think this is not a compressor dilemma, I think it's more the kind of reverb you are using and how you are applying it, that makes you think the drum sound is not very professional sounding.

Do it like this. Put your drum set in an isolated booth. Stereo mic it with x/y technique, with the mics rather close. Choose the mic depending on what drum you track. Gate the mic that is closer to take out the noise. Compress both mics moderately. Once tracked apply your most transparent long reverb effect in parallel and pan the tracks hard L and hard R (use group channels to apply this on the whole drum set). This will give the drums clearity in the center and a nice round high end. (leave the ratio at about 70% of the original and 30% of the tracks in parallel) In order to fine tune the sound from here you have many options. You can use for instance a multiband compressor or compressor + EQ. A low pass filter does good on the kick drum, toms and the snare, while a high pass filter does good on the snare, hi-hat and cymbals. Make sure though that you apply compression/limiting before the EQ effect. I guess you want a very warm, soft rather dark and punchy kick drum sound. This is done with the help of a compressor. Set the threshold rather high, at about -5dB. Set the ratio rather high, at about 5:1. Set the release rather high, depending on the style and tempo. But leave the attack at about 18. That's where the punch sounds mellow. Now you might think it sounds a little better, but it's still a little bad sounding. Then you have to control the 300 - 600Hz range. For the kick drum this frequency range is often pretty hard, as a rule I usually cut some frequencies widely here, only 1 - 2 dB per band though (but use your ears and cut as much as needed). The second problematic area is the really low frequencies, since too much gain on these frequencies create a harsh punch that eats loudness too. Apply a high pass filter on the kick drum to make it lighter, apply it at around 70Hz. As for the high end (hi-hats/cymbals) I think you should avoid high frequency cut. Instead use the volume fader. Often a really good sounding hi-hat is quiet and rather thin. In order to get this sound I think you should boost the really high frequencies. Boost in the 14 - 16 KHz area, only marginally (unless more is needed, use your ears). I think this is a good setup. But don't be fooled into thinking professional sounding drums is all about clever mixing techniques. I believe it's not. It all begins at the sound source mic and pre amp choice, the rest is fine tuning and emphasizing. Make sure the drumset is low on extra noise. Make sure the drums are tuned correctly and have no modulation in the sustain. For a dark sound, use heavy drum sticks. Try out different drum heads until you find a very clean sounding type. I think you should really focus on tuning the drums. This is the really hard part when it comes to drums and I think you should mostly focus on this and forget about all the rest until the tuning is perfect. As for the hi-hat and cymbal sounds there are no shortcuts. Choose Zildjian wisely!

Last but not least, turn up the volume fader on the drums more than you think! (except for the hi-hat and cymbals)

[salvator]

Hi,

Maybe you can post an drums wav file that you're nbot satisfied with, so we can listen and advice ?

Salvator

[jebjerome]

All good suggestions! The obvious thing to me that was left out is overdubbing the kick in kitchen and then doubling them panned hard left and right with one of the phases invert. You'll need another c800 for stereo beater side though.