More mileage from: pre-amp or good plugins?

[babydaddymusic]

As I have progressed in my engineering journey I have become aware of two things:
1) A good mic and mic pre makes a BIG difference in the sound that gets printed, and therefore eventually makes things easier in mixing.
2) A really good plugin, like a Waves CLA-3A, can make things much easier when mixing.
So I guess the best way for me to phrase this is, in this day and age of improving digital technology, do you still get more mileage out of a high-end mic and mic pre or would you say what I have on the front end (see below) is good enough that I should get really good plugins instead.
I use Logic and PT M-POWERED
When I say high end, I mean for example any true upgrade from what I have. That could mean a DAKING mic pre 1, or and SM7, or even a Neumann TLM-103, or you might say, you don't really get the magic until you move up to an API 512C or Neve Portico 5012, etc...
You may say, sell your car and get a lunchbox, and start getting really good compressors and pre's in the 500 series, and you will rarely have to use plugins.
This is more about how much of an effect making a jump in the front end end gear makes all of the neat stuff computers can do, not as necessary.

I don't have any great mics or mic pre's. I have an Apogee Duet, and a Joe Meek 3Q, and a Presonus Tube Pre.
I do have a home made API pre, which is made from a channel strip from the old API console in RCA "B" in Nashville.
I have a couple of AT 3035 (mid-level LD condenser) and a Sure Beta 52 for kick, and an SM57, and an AT 4041 SD condenser. Nothing special, but they all work. I have my studio well sound proofed with rockwool big, thick panels everywhere. Carpet on the floors, canvas couches in the right places.
I have Yamaha NS50m's for monitors.
I have about $800.00 to spend. I am thinking about getting the Waves CLA bundle or API, and maybe an SM-81.
On the other hand, as I have been living with a mix for a few days, you know- revisiting and then thinking for a day about what I like and what's not fixable in the mix, etc...
As I learn more, I realize you can fix some things in the mix but it's best to get the front end as good as you can, and of course, for me it has been trial and error on mic placement, gain staging, matching my limited pres with certain applications etc...
A part of me thinks "what if I had a magical, versatile mic pre" would that start a chain reaction of better mixing right from the get go.
Assuming all other things equal.
A good friend of mine, a producer engineer with millions of records sold, used whatever money he made back in the day, when we were both coming up, for outboard gear. Even as he made the transitions from ADAT to Pro Tools, he still went crazy for Neve and API outboard gear.
I can remember recording the demos that got me signed, at his house and thinking when I heard my acoustic come through on the headphones "that just sounds amazing, and we haven't even started". It was like anything you put through one of those pre's automatically sounded real, like it was on a record.
I wonder if I should save up for a really good mic pre, or maybe even upgrade mics.
I have been demoing the Waves CLA bundle, and I put the CLA-3A across the master fader of a song I am working on and it was like a magic box that made everything sound better immediately.

I am making recordings that I will sell on iTunes.
I am a former Columbia Records recording artist, and I am re-recording a couple of the songs off of my record as well (finally get to do it the way I wanted, hahaha)
So I need stuff to sound really good, not necessarily $5,000.00 a day, "A" room good, but a good independent recording, that sounds real.
What do you think?

[busker]

"It was like anything you put through one of those pre's automatically sounded real, like it was on a record."

I think you may have answered your question right there...

[babydaddymusic]

Originally Posted by busker

"It was like anything you put through one of those pre's automatically sounded real, like it was on a record."

I think you may have answered your question right there...

hahaha
you got me...
I have to admit too, he had pretty good mics as well. But this was an SM-81 on my acoustic, so it's not too expensive!

[babydaddymusic]

bump
I searched for something along these lines, if you have any threads of interest that would be great!

Noel

[BOWIE]

Depends on what your ears prefer. Personally, good outboard gear sounds more alive and pleasant for the type of stuff I do, so I put my money into just a few pieces of high-end outboard. However, a lot of guys don't notice a difference and/or they like the ability to tinker w/ multiple plugs for the price one one hardware.
Both are legit, you just have to figure out what helps you turn out the best product.

[Stepwise Sound]

If you are doing stuff at your own studio, invest in the front end.

If you invest in plugins you will just be chasing your tail to try to get the sound you should have recorded in the first place!

The Daking is a great choice, think the variable HPF should be beautiful -- the TRUE systems P SOLO also nice if you want cleaner sound. They both have multiple outs -- if you find yourself tearing your hair out with latency in PT you will be able to use a mixer or something and deal with it. Safesound P1 is another great choice and you have the zero latency headphone monitoring built in.

Your mics are not bad -- you should get a nice pre! I have an SM-81 and really like it but you have that basic thing covered with the AT4041. A nice pre will make all of your mics sounds better!

Plus you have Logic, you should have just about every plugin if you know what to do. (Don't believe me, check out Greg Kurstin's production work.)

[drastic]

I would go with the good pre. Resale value is always something to think about too. You wont get much $$ out of a plugin if you ever need to sell it for any reason.

[larry b]

Personally i would invest in hardware, considering that i outfitted my new studio computer with a whole grip of used plug-ins (good ones too, Abbey Road Digital, Sonnox Oxford, Eventide Anthology, Antares Pitch N' Time and Autotune, etc etc) for PENNIES on the dollar. Slapped some brand new Massey authorizations on there and i'm good to go.

But on the hardware side, stuff holds it's value.

[babydaddymusic]

Thank you guys for the replies
That API I have, it contains parts from a console that were put into a rack casing.
A buddy had to make it as part of his grade here at the Belmont school of music. I am not sure how "real" it is in terms of how the parts that he had to put in, like transformers, etc...
There is no metering, and the pre is HOT, and I mean HOT. Even with the 10db pads on my mics AND the pad on the pre, I can barely turn the gain up past 9:00.
I mic my kit with a four mic, Glyn John placement, and you can hear which side of the two OH has the API on it. There is a ton of punch, and presence that the other pre doesn't provide.
I will say that the first vocal recording I did through the API made my 3035 sound much, much better than the 3Q ever had. I was shocked at the difference. It was hard to lose my vocal in a fairly lush rock mix, and it reminded me how important the front end is.
Are you guys of the school that either get a grace 101 or RNP or go balls out and get into the 500 series and or don't bother with anything under a grand?
I guess for all intents and purposes I have an API mic pre, which is really cool. But really, I only have one really good pre, and I guess that's the issue.
The only thing I record more than one channel at a time is when I play drums, so...
A part of me wants to just buy a $400.00 API lunchbox and just start saving for a 512c, and maybe a chandler or GR NV
Another part of me says, a UA 110 or Daking, or that 700 dollarish range will be a step up compared to the other 3 pres I have (I am including the pres on my Apogee Duet).
I trust my ears, but I haven't had the benefit of seeing how some of these units suss out in a 20 track rock mix. Some guys say, you can get a pre that sounds good on one or two tracks, but when you start "stacking" at mix time, you learn the difference between a 600 dollar pre and a GR, or API, etc...
I know for sure the API/Home Made pre makes my vocal sit in the beautiful pocket right on top of the music with no effort, and that it makes the side of the drums I use it on in stereo punchy and present with no effort.
But, it's a little too stark for acoustic guitar to my ears, which I record a lot of acoustic guitar in my music.
So, ARRGGGGHHH!
Any thoughts!
Noel

[babydaddymusic]

Originally Posted by babydaddymusic

Thank you guys for the replies
That API I have, it contains parts from a console that were put into a rack casing.
A buddy had to make it as part of his grade here at the Belmont school of music. I am not sure how "real" it is in terms of how the parts that he had to put in, like transformers, etc...
There is no metering, and the pre is HOT, and I mean HOT. Even with the 10db pads on my mics AND the pad on the pre, I can barely turn the gain up past 9:00.

I know for sure the API/Home Made pre makes my vocal sit in the beautiful pocket right on top of the music with no effort, and that it makes the side of the drums I use it on in stereo punchy and present with no effort.
But, it's a little too stark for acoustic guitar to my ears, which I record a lot of acoustic guitar in my music.
So, ARRGGGGHHH!
Any thoughts!
Noel

Well crap. I just talked to him and he is moving in February and taking his API pre with him!!!
That solves it. Gonna have to get a good pre now

[antoniosolo]

I think they are equally important. Mic pre/mic imortant. Before I got great outbaoard I found a way to almost get there with plugins and still rely on plugins after the tracking. But my true love is analog......

[kooz]

1st, what goes into the box theoretically comes out of it.
2nd, mics and pres will be with you a long time...plugs change every so often...greater bang for your buck with actual hardware IMHO.