2-channel ADC or fireware interface comparable to Lynx L22

[oprema]

I have a question:

I've had a Lynx L22 PCI card for about five years now, and if it wasn't for my decision to move to Mac, I would continue using this card as I'm very happy with the quality of its converters, but I've gotten really tired from constant problems using Windows-based systems, and have wasted enough time with PCs to know that it's time now to make a transition. Now, I am looking for something of comparable or better quality than the Lynx card I have, something that would give me decent ADCs that I could use with a Macbook or iMac.

I intially contemplated getting a Mac Pro, thinking this would allow me to continue using my Lynx card, and while one of the reasons against this solution was that desktop Macs were expensive, (I hate investing too much money into computer hardware vs. audio hardware), I have also decided that I wouldn't want to get tied to a desktop system anymore, so at this point I'm looking for a solution that would give me 2 ADCs of Lynx quality, but something that isn't an overkill in terms of number of channels as I would only need to use two at the same time.

If Lynx made a 2-channel firewire interface or ADC converter, I wouldn't hesitate to get it, but their 8-16 channel converters would be an overkill for me as I only need two analog inputs.

Mic preamps are not a concern for me as I finally have a pair of good ones on order (pair of Daking One preamps).

As far as other equipment goes, I have a TC electronic Konnekt 24D interface which was a gift from a friend of mine, and a Digidesing MBox MIcro. I hardly used these devices after confirming that Lynx converters were much nicer than those on Konnekt or Mbox (Mbox Micro only has a stereo out)

As I use my system for tracking only, I could comfortably use Konnekt's DACs/outputs for monitoring. However, I would still like to have nice ADCs as I do lot of my vocal and instrument recordings on this system,and I wouldn't want to compromise any of that.

Konnekt 24D does have S/PDIF ins/outs, which I could use to connect external ADC to.

So, I'm hoping that someone could recommend a decent ADC/firewire interface solution that would compare well with my Lynx card that is in this price range.

I would also be interested to know how Apogee Duet or RME ADI-2 converters (and other converters/firewire interfaces in this price range) compare with Lynx L22.

Thanks,
RM

[jacktadoussac]

After looking at the alternatives, sets of ADC and DAC running at 2 to 3 grand, I think the way to go is a nice little PC workstation loaded with Windows 7 and a lovely little Lynx soundcard. No fiddling with extra cables to go from converter to PC -- totally integrated, and in theory, as high quality as those converters in a box.

But for the sake of portability the combination of Duet and a MacBook Pro looks very appealing. It is supposed to have top flyte converters, and it is really designed around the concept of a portable studio, or studio in a backpack.

[Surbitone]

Originally Posted by jacktadoussac

After looking at the alternatives, sets of ADC and DAC running at 2 to 3 grand, I think the way to go is a nice little PC workstation loaded with Windows 7 and a lovely little Lynx soundcard. No fiddling with extra cables to go from converter to PC -- totally integrated, and in theory, as high quality as those converters in a box.

+1 Yeah, I used to use mac, but there was still problems. Windows 7 is actually a really good OS. I'd get a PC with this on and keep your L22thumbsup

[jacktadoussac]

This may be off-topic, but I think there's much to be said about finding good software. If you find your music audio workstation crapping out, sometimes you can fix things by downloading an evaluation copy of Reaper or something. I found that after two or three years that Cubase Le wasn't making me happy, and Reaper was more stable.

[oprema]

Thank you all for replying.

I have to admit that I have a little fate in Windows after many years of troubleshooting and using various PCs/DAWs, and at this point, I feel very reluctant to invest into anything that is Windows-based (software upgrades, new DAWs, etc.).

I used Samplitude, Cubase, light editions of programs like Pro Tools or Ableton Live, etc, but the culprit is rarely an audio application, it's most often OS-related (e.g. fifteen years of plug ‘n pray and one still deals with resource management issues and similar).

So yes, I would really like to move away from Windows as my experience has been that a Windows-based audio system is a time-consuming adventure that I no longer neither have time nor nerves for. But I don't want this to turn into another Windows rant- I just want to find adequate hardware for a Mac-based solution.

Glad to hear thought that some of you have had a different experience with Windows.

Thanks.

[jacktadoussac]

You might consider this as a big endorsement for Apogee Duet -- but one of the partners of a Pro Audio store in Montreal swears by the combo of a Duet and Pro level Mac Laptop -- when recording his own band....basically the alternative is $500 versus 2 or 3 or 4 grand worth of mic pres and converters.

So you're mainly looking at two channels you may find its as good or better than the Lynx. If I owned a Mac I would look at the Duet (maybe look no further) to see if it meets my needs.

[Græmatter Audio]

I'm in a similar situation, however in my case I'd been running a Power Mac G5 with the Lynx L22. It's been an incredibly stable, reliable system in most respects - it just falls down when it comes to processing power for plug-ins (especially at 2x sample rates) and can be sluggish when editing projects with lots of individual regions in Logic.

So, it was time to move on... the Mac Pro is providing amazing performance (other than some stability issues with Logic 9) but the problem remains - there is no direct replacement that offers the same feature set, sound quality and price/performance ratio of the Lynx cards.

My interim solution - which you might be able to look at as well - was to get a cheap M-Audio FW interface (providing basic Pro-Tools functionality for those circumstances which demand it.) I've kept the G5 with the Lynx card installed and basically have it running as a stand alone converter feeding the digital I/O on the m-audio interface. You could do the same with your Konnekt interface. It also means you'd keep the pc around for compatibility with pc-only software platforms/past projects/backup system/metering/etc.

It's my hope that Lynx will come out with PCI express versions of their L series cards (not holding my breath) and/or a simple 2 channel external AD/DA with AES/spdif and a Firewire port/option. I've considered the Aurora 8 of course, but the I/O count is overkill for me and the money would be better spent on Lavry Black/Benchmark stuff (which may wind up being the solution, just extra $$$ for performance, at least on the DA side, which is arguably wasted outside of a mastering-quality monitoring system.)

Apogee doesn't really offer a sensibly priced solution for this feature set - the Symphony system isn't worth the cost of entry of the interface cards unless you need 8+ channels. The Rosetta 200 (w/FW) has features which contribute to the cost which aren't needed in many DAW based situations. The Duet - regardless of it's reportedly decent performance is a future paperweight thanks to it's lack of any digital i/o outside of FW - perhaps worth looking at if mobility is an actual priority and you aren't bothered by the concept of planned obsolescence.

Anyhow, perhaps you'll find the above concept (PC/Lynx as stand alone converter) useful.

G.

[oprema]

Thank you G. This is very helpful. It didn’t even occur to me to use PC w/Lynx card could as a standalone converter, and that sounds like a great idea.

As I have never had a need (nor used) anything other than Lynx analog ins/outs, and always within a DAW, I was wondering how would you set this up to be used outside a DAW, or would this even require any special setup on the PC/Lynx end other than connecting devices via s/pdif and selecting correct digital I/O format in Lynx mixer?


And also, I assume that you are using Lynx as an ADC-only in this setup , i.e. going into Lynx via its analog inputs, and out via Lynx digital out into your M-audio Firewire interface, and then your M-Audio interface is used for monitoring via its analog outs (or headphone amp)? The way I understand it is you cannot have both two digital and analog ins active on this card at the same time, which would then mean that the Lynx card couldn't be used as the DAC simultaneously.


Any latency problems associated with the use of multiple computers/interfaces or any potential signal degradation issues one should worry about?

Yeah, I wish Lynx would release a firewire version of L22. I suspected that there was nothing else in this price range that would give me comparable quality and work with MacBook/iMac.

RM

[Surbitone]

Originally Posted by jacktadoussac

This may be off-topic, but I think there's much to be said about finding good software. If you find your music audio workstation crapping out, sometimes you can fix things by downloading an evaluation copy of Reaper or something. I found that after two or three years that Cubase Le wasn't making me happy, and Reaper was more stable.

We went over to Sequoia & Reaper and haven't looked back since.

[James Lehmann]

For a 2-channel Firewire Interface with top draw pre-amps and very well-respected A-D-A conversion the Metric Halo ULN-2 is likely all you'll ever need.

A quick search on here will fill in the gaps.

[Græmatter Audio]

I'm pleased to hear that you've found the concept to be useful.

You have some good questions - I had been using this set up exclusively the other way around (as a DA only - I mainly do DAW-based editing & mixing on this system, and recording elsewhere) so I had not tested for bi-directionality until now.

It's a little fiddly to set up and troubleshoot, but it seems to be working; I'm able to stream music off the G5 via Lynx Digital out -> M-Audio spdif in -> Logic while simultaneously folding it back via the M-audio mixer for low latency (not sure how low - depends on how the m-audio handles this) monitoring of the input signal. In theory you could just keep using the Lynx Mixer to monitor the input signal in realtime by selecting your analog inputs as monitor sources for analog outs 1&2 in addition to Digital in L&R. You could also monitor Playback 1&2 from the PC (if needed) directly or by selecting it as a source for Digital Out L&R and feeding it back through the other interface as I've described above.

To connect the interfaces together use the AES -> s/pdif adaptors that should have come with the card if necessary.

The routing on the G5 (or in your case, the pc) side is all set up using the Lynx Mixer application - to achieve this functionality I've selected the pertinent monitor sources (as alluded to above) under the Output tab. Under the adaptor tab I've got the following settings:

Preferred Clock Source set to Internal
Digital Format set to S/PDIF
SRC Mode set to Off: Clock Sync

In the M-Audio software I've got sync source set to external.
To record the digital inputs in Logic requires selecting inputs 3 and/or 4 (corresponds to the digital ins on the M-Audio)
Additionally I've got Outputs 1-2 (as Logic sees them) routed to both Outs 1/2 and SPD in the M-Audio mixer so I can monitor via either interface without having to change outputs in Logic.

Of course the details may differ slightly with the TC Electronic interface software, but the same principles should apply.

In your case it may be easier to use the Analog outs on the Konnekt for monitoring if you don't have a separate mixer/monitor controller.

re: latency - this is a valid concern. If you're able to use the Lynx Mixer to monitor whatever you're recording then input monitoring latency will not be a problem - if you're using the Konnekt for this function then additional transfer buffer latency may apply - still if this is kept as low as possible (32 samples) it shouldn't be too problematic (this is adjustable in the Lynx Mixer application under the menu Settings->Device Settings.

The big question regarding latency is whether it will have an impact on tracks lining up properly upon recording. It's my understanding that normally the interface reports roundtrip latency to Logic and it's compensated for automatically (The recorded audio is placed where it should go relative to the playback from Logic you where recording to.) Using external AD/DA may incur additional latency that Logic has no way of knowing about. The only way to know will be to do a loopback test, and adjust the Recording delay (under Logic's Preferences -> Audio...) until you get the correct result. I was able to get an impulse to sync properly with itself by adding 85 samples of recording delay - of course your setup may be different, and also different sample rates may have to be tested and corrected for independently.

Anyhow, hopefully this is clear enough - routings in the Lynx mixer can be difficult to understand and explaining them can be even trickier, particularly when there are two independent I/O streams happening simultaneously.

I can recommend the support forum on the Lynx website if you need any other specific information or assistance in getting this system going - they've been very helpful whenever I've encountered issues in the past.

The major drawback I've found working this way - and the reason it's not a viable longterm solution for me - is that switching between sample rates can pose problems. It'll often mean having to shut down and restart, ensuring things are turned back on in the correct order, etc. This is probably more down to the m-audio being a cheap-o piece of crap with insufficient in-built capability to resolve sample rate (and/or crappy drivers?) than anything else. Not being able to monitor OSX playback (iTunes, etc.) while working at high sample rates in Logic is a pain - similar problems arise even at 44.1/48kHz sample rates when using Logic 9's new flex editing features (presumably due to behind the scenes sample rate conflict problems that the M-Audio interface can't handle - results in garbled playback.) Anyway - getting into a different topic altogether.

Hope this helps.

G.

Originally Posted by oprema

Thank you G. This is very helpful. It didn’t even occur to me to use PC w/Lynx card could as a standalone converter, and that sounds like a great idea.

As I have never had a need (nor used) anything other than Lynx analog ins/outs, and always within a DAW, I was wondering how would you set this up to be used outside a DAW, or would this even require any special setup on the PC/Lynx end other than connecting devices via s/pdif and selecting correct digital I/O format in Lynx mixer?


And also, I assume that you are using Lynx as an ADC-only in this setup , i.e. going into Lynx via its analog inputs, and out via Lynx digital out into your M-audio Firewire interface, and then your M-Audio interface is used for monitoring via its analog outs (or headphone amp)? The way I understand it is you cannot have both two digital and analog ins active on this card at the same time, which would then mean that the Lynx card couldn't be used as the DAC simultaneously.


Any latency problems associated with the use of multiple computers/interfaces or any potential signal degradation issues one should worry about?

Yeah, I wish Lynx would release a firewire version of L22. I suspected that there was nothing else in this price range that would give me comparable quality and work with MacBook/iMac.

RM

[oprema]

G, thank you for all the detail. This is very helpful and gives me a good idea about setup, latency and sample rate issues.

As you mentioned M-Audio equipment and drivers, I have to tell you that I had a really bad experience with their only device that I ever got to use (USB MIDI interface) that I eventually gave up on it.

James, you mentioned ULN-2, and I remember seeing good reviews/reports on this unit. If I was ready to spend this much though , I would be tempted to stretch few hundreds more and go for Aurora 8 w/firewire card as I don't really have a need for additional preamps (have two Daking pres), it's just that I don't really need all those extra channels of ADC/DAC either. If they only made a 2-channel version of this unit.

Once again, thank you all for replying.

[thermos]

Another vote for the Duet. I have a Lynx Aurora (supposedly better than the L22 card) and the lovely Fred Forssell converters, and I find the Duet converters to do the job nicely.

I'd say avoid M-Audio at all costs on a Mac (i've had problems too). I'm sure the ULN-2 is great.

[jacktadoussac]

Wow, Thermos: so the Apogee Duet is that good. If only there was a Lavry or Forrsell (or somebody) unit that combined a great preamp with a great converter. Is it time to get a Macbook Pro and take advantage of that itty biddy Duet?