When ****-ups aren't ****-ups.....

[ianbryn11]

So, what do you do when a musician simply keeps playing takes in an effort to get it perfect, when it sounded good already.... Not sure, but i feel like it loses something the more you try to fix something that isn't broke........

[A LaMere]

Yep, I've had that experience....

and I've been the guitar player who couldn't get the take right, and needed to take it 20 times in order to play it the way that I wanted to play it.

If it's your record and you're paying someone to play some parts... I think you have the right to say "that was perfect dude, let's move on"... but if you're recording someone else's record, for them... I think it's your job to just stay as patient as possible and keep recording. I mean, that's what ya get paid for correct? There's always a very real possibility that you aren't hearing something in the performance that they really want to be there I suppose??

My $.02.

[Skulls615]

Grab some coffee or beers and just get ready for a long night. That is unless it's your project and you just tell em' enough is enough!

[joeq]

if it's not right, it's not right

if you are talking about a musician who can play who is not making mistakes, but is someone who knows what he wants and is just looking for a certain 'something' - you got to let him work it out. This is often a part of the process.

Of course if somebody is like that on every take of every track, then you should gently suggest counseling.

[KRStudio]

Dude!! Your 45 takes wore a whole in my hard drive! We need to move to a different spot in the song.

[Hxd Ped]

I had that issue with my old guitar player. I just showed him how to run the DAW and let him go to town on his own. Then he discovered the miricle of digital editing....

If the guy's paying you, let him go. Maybe sugest punching in here and there so he's not playing playing parts he likes again and messing them up.

[PhilR]

I'm in a band with someone like that! Fortunately he's not the main songwriter so he had less parts to play overall but still.... Always wanting to hear his parts solo'd so he could micro-analyze the intonation and inflection of every note...

Eventually I just started telling him that as his guitar parts would never be heard out of the context of the mix he should just take my word that they were fine and he should concentrate on just shutting the hell up.

I love working from home.

[James 'LA' Lugo]

It depends, sometimes letting a person do what they think is right is the part of the job. Lord knows people have sat around and wondered what the hell I was doing. I mean as engineers we sit in a chair and hit play and record, what's the difference it's not like we we're tarring a roof on 100 degree weather. Our jobs are cake.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by ianbryn11

So, what do you do when a musician simply keeps playing takes in an effort to get it perfect, when it sounded good already.... Not sure, but i feel like it loses something the more you try to fix something that isn't broke........

Appreciate the fact that he's NOT saying 'That was good enough, I'm sure you can Pro-Tool it to get a good master'.

Sometimes we all know that Take 1 was the one but we still go on trying to improve it. I don't have a problem with that unless it's somebody like Eric Johnson where you'd probably sit there for weeks......

I learned to be 'diplomatic' about stuff like that. Keep all takes, no matter what the musician says. Instead of arguing whether to do another take or not, just do it. It will take less time that way.

[ianbryn11]

Some good points... I think part of what im referring to involves differences in taste as to what makes up a good take. To me, the best take is not always the one where every note is right on beat. The guitarist who i was working with last nite is an amazing player.. She does some outstanding lead stuff, (AP magazine named her the "Runner up best guitarist of the year in 2008" after Omar Rodriguez of the Mars Volta....) WOw! ANwyay, shes also a friend of mine, and it was overall a fun session....

i noticed more than a few times, that what i thought was a great take, she would want to redo, just to put something down that i didnt think sounded as good. Maybee every note was a bit more pronounced, but it didn't have the natural feel or flow that the take before it had. And i told her that i thought so, often to a bewildered look..... In the end i left it up to her.....

I understand that sometimes it takes time to get the take you like, particularly when you have a vision in your head of what it is supposed to sound like.... (which she obviously does... But i also understand (from personal experience within my own music, and from working with her and hearing her last record...) that sometimes people can be too picky for their own good.....

[msquared]

Originally Posted by doorknocker

Appreciate the fact that he's NOT saying 'That was good enough, I'm sure you can Pro-Tool it to get a good master'.

Seriously. I'll take the uber tweakers over the slackers any day.

[coyotekells]

I find it refreshing when a player or singer is still searching for some other magic, even when the take is "technically good".

It's usually my job to convince people there's some more to strive for, it feels good to meet others who are willing to beat a dead horse with me

[Paul Russell]

I've found the best way with creative people is to give them a good brief and let them do their stuff. Let the magic happen and sort out the litter later. You'd be surprised how often this turns into something wonderful and unexpected.

[u b k]

I just spent 3 days getting 2 harmony tracks written, arranged, and nailed.

It was so friggin' worth it.

O.P., if you see progress (or evolution), let it be. If it feels like a circular activity, wait for a break in the action and, after a few minutes away, gently offer your perspective. Oftentimes, you just need to share your conviction that they already got what was needed, then press play for a fresh listen with that perspective.

Not sure why this occurs to me now, but shut the monitor off when you do playbacks like that. It switches off the visual cortex and lets people just listen. Too many times people are 'watching daw tv' when they're supposed to be 'listening to music'.


Gregory Scott - ubk

[Cursed Lemon]

When I record, I'm always playing parts that are slightly out of my comfort range, sometimes out of want and sometimes because it's just part of the song, and there's a lot of nuance to playing the guitar. Every note has to accent properly, and it's definitely not stuff that can be fixed later on.

[Butcha]

I think sometimes it is better to just call a stop if the feeling is right. It's like all those Jimmy Page solos which have these little glitches and unexpected stops just because Jimmy soloed himself out (something he admits himself). Those are as much a part of what people love about those records as anything else.

There are musical mistakes which become part of the overall vibe. I know myself as a guitar player that it is sometimes easy to get caught up in the pursuit of perfection and not be able to say "good enough, that was a moment committed to tape".

[toasteh]

a lot...

Sometimes I like to let them keep playing and being unsatisfied. Then, when they are all done and want a listen, I play the take I was satisfied with to begin with, and they all go "Ohh wow, it sounds so much better now."

Then afterwards I like to play the latest tracks they did and tell them those are the ones we did before that "weren't good enough". Then Ill watch them shake their heads saying "Im glad we did it over".

Trust me, its fun.

[mexicola]

Oh yeah, I've been there!

I always take the position that it's not my song, so if the musician is not satisfied, they'd know better. Although it is easy for a musician to lose perspective after too many takes (especially when marijuana or alcohol is involved!). Sometimes if it's not happening I'll suggest a five minute break, or to move on and come back to it.

Besides, if you're getting paid by the hour like alot studios and engineers, what's the complaint?

[ianbryn11]

right... in this case i am not being paid by the hour... The band are friends of mine, and i said they could pay me whatever they could afford.... It would be a different story if i where being paid hourly.... Live and learn....

[Butcha]

Originally Posted by ianbryn11

right... in this case i am not being paid by the hour... The band are friends of mine, and i said they could pay me whatever they could afford.... It would be a different story if i where being paid hourly.... Live and learn....

Particularly if the band are inexperienced in the studio, then someone needs to take the reigns. If you think that you have the take, then suggest a quick playback break to listen to said take.

[u b k]

Originally Posted by toasteh

Trust me, its fun.

I agree, lying for no good reason is awesome, especially if it validates your belief that you're right and allows you to maintain a mental position of superiority.

Keep up the good work.


Gregory Scott - ubk

[joeq]

Originally Posted by ianbryn11

right... in this case i am not being paid by the hour... The band are friends of mine, and i said they could pay me whatever they could afford.... It would be a different story if i where being paid hourly.... Live and learn....

learn this:

The next time you offer a 'deal' of this nature to friends (or strangers), include the stipulation that you are the Producer. You get something (the chance to practice being a Producer) instead of nothing (whatever they could afford!) PLUS you get to make the call on when 'enough is enough'.

[Butcha]

Originally Posted by joeq

learn this:

The next time you offer a 'deal' of this nature to friends (or strangers), include the stipulation that you are the Producer. You get something (the chance to practice being a Producer) instead of nothing (whatever they could afford!) PLUS you get to make the call on when 'enough is enough'.

Mos def. Also, be sure to distinguish between ****-ups which are more a case of someone just getting caught with a couple of little bits rather than someone not being able to play the part. A visit to the rehersal space beforehand to make sure that everything is good can save a whole lot of time and heartbreak later.

[toasteh]

Originally Posted by u b k

I agree, lying for no good reason is awesome, especially if it validates your belief that you're right and allows you to maintain a mental position of superiority.

Keep up the good work.


Gregory Scott - ubk

Well excuse me all to hell. How am I lying when I show them both tracks and still they agree with me on what sounds best? I mean they are free to choose, yet they don't hear the difference from the start. Jesus, you have a moral similar to every ending of "Full House". Try having some fun while you work, you can do that without ruining peoples careers.

[espasonico]

Originally Posted by ianbryn11

So, what do you do when a musician simply keeps playing takes in an effort to get it perfect, when it sounded good already.... Not sure, but i feel like it loses something the more you try to fix something that isn't broke........

I´ve been engineering for producers and I always tried to keep my mouth shut and let the producer do his job. When I´m producing I try to know soon the potential of each musician I´m working with. If I´m playing guitar in somebody´s record, nothing pisses me off more than an engineer telling me how great was a take when I know it sucks ( and I know it )

[AllAboutTone]

It drives me crazy, but hey the clock is ticking.

[toneguru]

Best thing to do if it is on their dime...

Musician says "do you mind if I try another take".

Smile and say "are you kidding me, I live for this, lets roll tape baby".

- Cheers

[Makinithappen]

Originally Posted by toasteh

Well excuse me all to hell. How am I lying when I show them both tracks and still they agree with me on what sounds best? I mean they are free to choose, yet they don't hear the difference from the start. Jesus, you have a moral similar to every ending of "Full House". Try having some fun while you work, you can do that without ruining peoples careers.

While I agree with you... I usually just keep the take I like and then after 7 or 8 tries, say "Ya know what guys... I kinda liked this one a few takes back. What'd'you guys think?" and play them back to back... more often than not, they agree with me.

If not? Like AllAboutTone said. The clocks ticking.

Exactly the same thing you do except minus having to lie.

(BTW... lets face it, I think we all tell little lies occasionally to keep sessions going smoothly....)

[u b k]

Originally Posted by toasteh

How am I lying when I show them both tracks and still they agree with me on what sounds best?

Since you asked:

Originally Posted by toasteh

Then, when they are all done and want a listen, I play the take I was satisfied with to begin with, and they all go "Ohh wow, it sounds so much better now."

This is misleading. Is it a lie? I don't know. Is it deceptive? Dishonest? Yes.

Originally Posted by toasteh

Then afterwards I like to play the latest tracks they did and tell them those are the ones we did before that "weren't good enough".

Now you're outright lying.

Originally Posted by toasteh

Jesus, you have a moral similar to every ending of "Full House". Try having some fun while you work, you can do that without ruining peoples careers.

No worries sunshine, I have plenty of fun over here. The thing is, your definition of fun is different than mine. By your own account, you have your fun at the expense of others, in a private internal game that no one else can see, no one else can share in.

Sounds like a ton of fun to me. Here's a thought: next time you have your fun, after you've duped your clients into thinking their first take was their latest and they express relief at having worked on it until it was right, try letting the performers in on the joke, let them share in the fun.

Let us know how that goes.


Gregory Scott - ubk

[Croaker]

Depends on the situation like others have described. If the person is really talented, knows what they want and feel the need you gotta give them some rope. People like that realize when they are hanging themselves pretty fast....and they may just come up with something better. Of course no two situations are the same.

If it is an inexperienced person in the studio they may not realize the more they do it the worse it gets, some gentle nudging and honestly may be in order. Sometimes a person is looking for a little guidance and welcomes it. Trickery and deception no matter how trivial or fun it may seem is a no go for me.

It really is all about just dealing with people. Make someone feel comfortable and be upfront with them and you gain their respect in the long run, and possibly a client for life.