What is more important to you, process or product
Old 7th October 2005
  #1
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Thread Starter
What is more important to you, process or product

This is one of those questions that there is probably no right answer to, and maybe it's even pointless to ponder, but it is 12:34 AM and why not?

in your productions - the ones that mean the most to you - do you concern yourself more with the process or the final product? Obviously everyone worries about both, but I'm guessing that everyone worries about one more than the other to some degree.

An example to claify what I mean:
Would you cut a corner that you know won't really matter in the end? Or would you obsess over that corner, possibly at the expense of the final product?
Old 7th October 2005
  #2
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The process exists to serve the product.

Certainly it's arcane and fraught with esoterica, but the product is the point.

Even alchemy is an utter wank unless it follows with gold.
Old 7th October 2005
  #3
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i think the process, if practiced like a discipline, creates
opportunities for the moment - the moment is trying to achieve
the impossible in suspending time - creating something
eternally present.........

whatever makes that moment more consuming
and magnetic is probably a good idea.........
all i know is when something good is about
to happen.........people usually
want it to happen pretty fast......
so have your process close
like a glove.......



- jack
Old 7th October 2005
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themaidsroom
i think the process, if practiced like a discipline, creates
opportunities for the moment
Nice!! Man, I know a few people who really need to hear that quote.

This is an interesting topic. I know some musicians who would passionately disagree with the first two posters to this thread.

But I think your quote really hits an important point - manages to find the middle path.
Old 7th October 2005
  #5
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matt thomas's Avatar
 

is this a trick question?

definitely product.

you asked "Would you cut a corner that you know won't really matter in the end?"

if it doesn't matter at all in the end then why consider doing it at all? unless of course it makes the client happy, which is important too.

If it matters a bit in the end then its not really a product vs process question because both are affected. Remeber what george lucas (i think it was) said about films, something like:

"All great artists never finish their work, they merely abandon it"
Old 7th October 2005
  #6
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The process is the product.
Old 7th October 2005
  #7
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some people say that the process, or actually doing something, is more important than the product or end result. I guess in some ways they're right.

but I rather have a crappy prosess and a great product than the other way around.

if I understood the question right?
Old 7th October 2005
  #8
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BB Bill's Avatar
 

someone explain to me what good a great process would do if the end product sucks.

this is a no brainer IMO.
Old 7th October 2005
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juicemaster1500
some people say that the process, or actually doing something, is more important than the product or end result. I guess in some ways they're right.

but I rather have a crappy prosess and a great product than the other way around.

if I understood the question right?
Yeah, I'm not sure I get the question either...

how can you get a great product with a crappy process ?
Old 7th October 2005
  #10
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Drumsound's Avatar
 

The goal is the end product. I like the job because I enjoy the process of getting there.
Old 7th October 2005
  #11
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Please note that I did not discount the aracana, skills or passions invested into the creation of a recording.

I simply said that they are learned and valued becauase they exist to serve the results, and the results, if you are lucky, is a viable product that finds emotional purchase with the people who hear it.

What's more important, the passions or the skills of the chef, or the meal? He is passionate about the product and dedicates those passions and skills to creating it.. through the process of cuisine.

See? The process involves the artisan in order to create the work of art. And the entree... well, the entree is committed.
Old 7th October 2005
  #12
Banned
 

Hmmm....

I don't think it's good to cut corners, even if you think they don't matter...

I don't think it's good to obsess, but what's the point of phoning it in, how about doing the absolute best you can....

If you end up with a good product, there must be something good about your process....

ultimately, I think the process is more important...you can't guarantee a good product...but the process is your life....and it seems to me if you do a good job, the odds are better of getting a good product...I sure don't see how you can do a bad job and end up with a good product . (Maybe someone will explain that...)

in fact, I think there are a lot more "processes" going on than there is good music...by FAR...doesn't seem to be stopping anybody...
Old 7th October 2005
  #13
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This is obivously one of those PHLS 101 chicken / egg things, and it's gonna be interesting to see who subscribes to what and how they reason it.

Old 7th October 2005
  #14
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personally I think the egg came first is the correct answer for those who support evolution as the correct theorey, and the chicken is the right answer for those that support a creationist type theory.

That is, between the chicken/egg and the ancestor there has to be a modification of genes, and that cannot happen between the egg -> chicken, except under an extreme fluke such as a supurbly timed and placed radiation blast. Therefore, rationally speaking, I have to go with the egg being first.

narco
Old 7th October 2005
  #15
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u b k's Avatar
 

interesting question.

my perspective is doubtless skewed by the fact that, currently, i am all things with my own music: writer, performer, engineer, producer. but i'm also strictly engineering and producing two other projects, and writing for yet another artist.

on my current song, i've just moved into mixdown, but this is nebulous: the arrangement isn't 100%, some tracks still need to be laid. a mix reveals to me arrangement details that i hadn't thought of, it inspires moments that can only happen when the flow is coming together. it's the first time i hear a song as it really is, rather than how it is inside my head. that affords me new perspective.

nevertheless, i caught myself following in my own footsteps, using established procedures. so i stopped, really stopped everything, reset all faders, zeroed all knobs, and i gave myself permission to have things sound really bad, to make the point of the evening one of exploration, of having fun, of abandoning the idea that i have an agenda (to complete a song, to start a mix, to finalize an arrangement), of being an artist with no eye towards product who allows every breath to be the beginning and end of my world.

the song revealed itself in a way no song ever has. so did the mix. i'm floored. i learned a lot, i had one of the best nights of my life. that last one, the quality of the experience, is the one that matters most, that still resonates with me today.

i learned that, for me, i find bliss when the process does not serve the product, nor the other way around, but rather when the process and the product and i, the creator of the experience, all serve the moment. when everything is freed from time-based considerations and comes to rest in the everpresent now, which needs nothing, wants nothing other than to be experienced as it is.

the muse is overjoyed. she says that with our minds on active duty, with the lingering presence of time and judgments charging the atmosphere, we experience the full flow of music as an ocean coming thru a pinhole. there is so much more than we know, all we gotta do is open up, let it in.

easier said than done, perhaps. worth the effort, doubtless.


gregoire
del ubik
Old 7th October 2005
  #16
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You see... the egg and the chicken only exsist to serve one another. It's a method. Whence the chicken is inconsequential. The egg is simply that species' reproductive process.

'The question "What's more important, the product or the process" has but one honest answer.

Yes.
Old 7th October 2005
  #17
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The product is just a slice of the process; it's all about where you slice. I feel like themaidsroom already said this, but this is how I like to think of it.
Old 7th October 2005
  #18
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Anderson's Avatar
 

The process serves the product - The process defines the product.

The most important thing is to work with the right team, then everything will be in it's right place.
Old 7th October 2005
  #19
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I likes my chicken fried and my eggs scrambled....
Old 7th October 2005
  #20
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I'm convinced it's the process, and the process should be fun...

if your lucky, when people listen to your product, they'll think it's good and will have fun listening to it.....if not, at least you had a good time making it .










P.S. I think ubik's bass is high again...
Old 7th October 2005
  #21
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The product is most important.

If you have to focus on the process to get a better product, so be it. As long as your goal is for the best product.
Old 7th October 2005
  #22
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On a superficial and practical business level: the product.

On a deeper level, what exactly is the definition of "the product"? The end result, I presume, but what is that? Is it commercial success? Or is it artistic integrity? These are not necessarily correlated. The process can have a lot to do with the latter.

I suppose it depends on how one measures success.
Old 7th October 2005
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djui5

If you have to focus on the process to get a better product, so be it.
How do you not?
Old 7th October 2005
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAWgEAR
On a superficial and practical business level: the product.

On a deeper level, what exactly is the definition of "the product"? The end result, I presume, but what is that? Is it commercial success? Or is it artistic integrity? These are not necessarily correlated. The process can have a lot to do with the latter.

I suppose it depends on how one measures success.
Yeah, I wonder...

It sure doesn't sound like integrity....sounds like money....
Old 7th October 2005
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11
Yeah, I'm not sure I get the question either...

how can you get a great product with a crappy process ?
Well can I think of several ways. What was that band.....nickelback, I think.

Bring up the Protools project from our last album. Keep the tempo changes and key signature. Rerecord with slightly different phrasing.

IT"S A HIT!!!!

On the other end of this is something like Brian Wilson's Smile. Took him 30 some years.
Old 7th October 2005
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhughes

IT"S A HIT!!!!
Oh, okay, I get what your're talking about now...in that case, yeah, the product is king...

I do hope that all those sellouts who succeed with their crappy processes burn in hell .

Or at least feel real empty inside....
Old 7th October 2005
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11
How do you not?
Seems simple don't it?


You're not when either you don't care about the final, or the process is more important to you than the final product.


Also there are expections, like when you don't need to focus on the process because the musicans/producer/engineer/session vibe are all killer and fall into place. This is rare..........
Old 7th October 2005
  #28
Banned
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by djui5
Seems simple don't it?


You're not when either you don't care about the final, or the process is more important to you than the final product.


Also there are expections, like when you don't need to focus on the process because the musicans/producer/engineer/session vibe are all killer and fall into place. This is rare..........
Hmmm, interesting...I guess I'm coming from a different place....to me, it's all connected, and you can't get to z without going through a-y, and to me, it would be a miracle if a-y was bad and crappy, but somehow z turned out good anyway.
Old 7th October 2005
  #29
Banned
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhughes

On the other end of this is something like Brian Wilson's Smile. Took him 30 some years.
Brian Wilson clearly had an excellent A1 top-of-the-line process, one we all wish for...unfortunately it got messed up....
Old 7th October 2005
  #30
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u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11
P.S. I think ubik's bass is high again...

i had, in fact, smoked that night, an occasional thing for me but still crucial to tweaking my noggin. it was the most exquisite and clear herb i've ever had the pleasure of burning.

cinderella, i believe she's called.

interestingly, one of the things i learned that night was the magic of the 300hz zone on deep bass. it brought the weight of the moog up and around the mix, like a big woolly blanket on a chilly winter night. now there's less actual bottom, but it sounds heavier and marries with the kick more cleanly.


gregoire
del ubik
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