Hi Hat problems

[shaneoconnor]

a few years ago, when i was running my own room i often had really terrible drummers coming through and pounding on hi hats as if there was no tomorrow.

now i work in more high end facilities, which keeps out the riff raff.

last weekend i encountered a cymbal smasher for the first time in at least a year (this is not a complaint thread..)

anyway, i did my usual tricks, angling OH and rack mic. foam guards on snare tom and rack tom to try and eliminate bleed. it was one of the worse offenders i have ever had. there was tons of hi hat in kick, he was just destroying hi hats.

so in mix, i will have some possibilities with samples and keying but what i am really asking is:

What hi hats could i get that would be so soft, that even this monster couldn't destroy his drum sounds?

[lord_bunny]

I have this friend who does session work who is VERY balanced, his sound is so pleastantly even. I have another who destroys his kick/snare but treats the brass like it was made of glass, and he's such a breeze to record. They both sound great and I never have that feeling like i'm gonna fight with the snare mic, if anything thses guys benifit from pulling the snare mic away so I can ctach a little more high-end and a little less muffled thump.

The first guy always shows up with these 60's hats that are SUPER quiet/WARM!. Too quiet for some material and we ended up switching them out for a brighter/louder set for one rock song on the last e.p. we did together.

There are mellow hats out there, and having a set as a studio owner would be advised for when a basher shows up. I wish I knew the make, but probably 60's Zildjan.

[bgrotto]

I like 13" Ks. Get the darkest/dryest pair you can find.

I play a "hybrid" set, which I got directly from Zildjian and have never seen commercially available (though I'd hesitate to assume they're prototypes or anything like that; I just haven't seen them around anywhere else).

The top cymbal is high-gloss finish (like an A Custom) from the bell to about halfway down the cymbal. After that, it's a more typical K finish. This allows for a lot of tonal variety, and, for the "basher types", playing the shoulder of the stick into the edge of the cymbal (which is the unfinished, darker part), will help keep the brashness under control really well.

The bottom cymbal is vented, meaning, the edge of the cymbal is crimped, which helps dry out the tone considerably, and also adds a nice definition when playing with the foot.

Like I said, I'm not sure if these are stock cymbals or not, but if you can find em, grab em! They sound absolutely great!!

[BLUElightCory]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

I like 13" Ks. Get the darkest/dryest pair you can find.

I play a "hybrid" set, which I got directly from Zildjian and have never seen commercially available (though I'd hesitate to assume they're prototypes or anything like that; I just haven't seen them around anywhere else).

The top cymbal is high-gloss finish (like an A Custom) from the bell to about halfway down the cymbal. After that, it's a more typical K finish. This allows for a lot of tonal variety, and, for the "basher types", playing the shoulder of the stick into the edge of the cymbal (which is the unfinished, darker part), will help keep the brashness under control really well.

The bottom cymbal is vented, meaning, the edge of the cymbal is crimped, which helps dry out the tone considerably, and also adds a nice definition when playing with the foot.

Like I said, I'm not sure if these are stock cymbals or not, but if you can find em, grab em! They sound absolutely great!!

Are they the K Hybrids?

Zildjian K Hybrid Hats

Either way I'm going to add a huge +1 for Zildjian K series cymbals.

It's also really important to work with cymbal bashers and to try to get them to mix themselves. Some drummers are used to playing in deafening environments and tend to smash cymbals out of habit. Explain to the drummer that laying off the cymbals will help you engineer a better sound and hopefully it'll be enough incentive for him to adjust his dynamics.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by BLUElightCory

Are they the K Hybrids?

Zildjian K Hybrid Hats

Either way I'm going to add a huge +1 for Zildjian K series cymbals.

Yup, those are them!

Like I said, great-sounding cymbals, and very versatile. They work for me in my metal band, and they've worked for clients in damn near every other genre.

[phaqu]

Originally Posted by BLUElightCory

It's also really important to work with cymbal bashers and to try to get them to mix themselves. Some drummers are used to playing in deafening environments and tend to smash cymbals out of habit. Explain to the drummer that laying off the cymbals will help you engineer a better sound and hopefully it'll be enough incentive for him to adjust his dynamics.

thumbsup

I was going to say almost the same thing till my internet started F'ing up. Along with, when I first heard myself on tape,it was a real eye opener, and that I needed to get a better grip on some playing technics that differed from the rehearsal room.


Maybe micing the hi hats and cranking them in the headphone mix might tame them down a bit.

[bgrotto]

Heh...I forgot to mention...when I first got those K Hybrid hats, the bass player in my band complained that he thought they were too quiet.

YES!!!!!

[RockManDan]

i know this is a band-aid and not a real fix, but maybe setting up a dedicated hihat mic and using it to side chain compress the highs on the other tracks. so any time he hits the hihat it ducks the high frequencies on the OH's or snare for example. could work.

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by RockManDan

i know this is a band-aid and not a real fix, but maybe setting up a dedicated hihat mic and using it to side chain compress the highs on the other tracks. so any time he hits the hihat it ducks the high frequencies on the OH's or snare for example. could work.

THAT is pretty slick, gonna try that the next time i need to - Cheers!

[FredYeah]

In my personal setup, I had a pai of Zildjian A serie Custom 14" hats and a pair of 14" Zildjian New Beat hihats. I love them both. For heavy rock stuff, I usually get a one inch bigger top cymbal (say a 15"t op on a 14" bottom) to get that fat quarter sound qssssssshhhh. (As I remember a trick from Alex van Halen...)

Those New Beat hihats are quite sturdy. You need some serious power to crack them.

[chrisso]

Yeah, I think it's important to educate these people.
Recording engineers educated me.
I hated the guys who sat at the mixer silent, then bad mouthed me after I'd packed up and gone home.
A few great engineers worked with me and coaxed a better sound and performance from me. I'll never forget that, and I'm eternally grateful.
It helped me to listen back to my drum tracks and have the flaws/difficulties pointed out and explained.

Of course, I also visit drum forums and one of the most widespread opinions is that my sound is my sound, if the engineer can't record it and make me sound good, they suck.

[shaneoconnor]

chrisso, in my own defense. i spent some time talking to him about the logistics of hitting the hi hats like a mad man.



he brushed me off as if i "wasn't a drummer".

i don't consider myself a drummer by trade, but i am a hell of a lot better than he is.

Bgrotto, thanks i will look into those.

[Vintageblue02]

I have a pair of 70's era 15' Zildjian hats. As it turns out they are actually two 15" A Zildjian Thin Crashes. To preserve these cymbals, I've sinced tried/purchased/rented mixed & matched sets of THIN 15" A. Zildjian & K. Zildjian crashes. Great tones. Warm, mellow, crisp, delicate yet any drummer is able to coax more volume from them.

[vernier]

Hats sound good played lightly.

[fakiekid]

We have a set of 13" K Custom Dark Hats. Stay mellow and dark!

I tend to stay away from mastersounds too. The sizzle from the bottom hats shape is just too much sometimes. Z's are also a no no!

[dnaflr2]

15", lighter weight, less weight difference between top and bottom ham. The lighter weight means less hard, abrasive, tink.. The extra size- 15" will give you some of the presence back if that makes sense.

I use a pair of 15" AGOP's, they are lite- bottom and top are close in weight- both around 800 gr each.

[ericstadium]

my favorite trick- crank this crap out of the hats in the drummer's phones so the lightest hit sounds like garbage. eq tons of brittle high end into it (just for monitoring) so it even annoys him (which is a feat).

[honeypiestudios]

I always use my pair of 20-year-old 14" Zildjian New Beats. They're always nice and smooth and not too loud. But then there's always the option of talking seriously with the drummer and explaining the difference between live and studio and that he/she, and really every other player, needs to think differently about the studio environment. Interestingly, I'm always telling drummers to hit harder, because they think that in the studio they don't need to hit as hard (because they're wearing headphones and can hear everything more crisply than they're used to), so I've never really had the problem of the drummer who bashes away.

[ericstadium]

Originally Posted by honeypiestudios

I always use my pair of 20-year-old 14" Zildjian New Beats. They're always nice and smooth and not too loud. But then there's always the option of talking seriously with the drummer and explaining the difference between live and studio and that he/she, and really every other player, needs to think differently about the studio environment. Interestingly, I'm always telling drummers to hit harder, because they think that in the studio they don't need to hit as hard (because they're wearing headphones and can hear everything more crisply than they're used to), so I've never really had the problem of the drummer who bashes away.

My new beats are the same, and I have some random pair of Paiste sound formulas that are very clear and crisp without sounding like trash cans (and strangely enough sound better with the bottom hat in the top position).

I always try to have a talk with any unseasoned drummer in the studio about bashing hats, riding crashes so loud that you can't hear when another crash is hit (my BIG pet peeve, since everyone rides crashes now), and keeping their hats tighter and cleaner sounding. Playing cymbals seems to be a lost art, as drummers don't attempt to balance their own sound anymore because microphones are on every drum and we, the engineers, have the "control."

While certain types of hats will yield better results, I just try to keep as much of the hats out of my overheads as possible by not putting a mic over them (more over the rack tom and left crash cymbal). My other pet peeve is drummers who set up their hats OVER the snare, crashes over toms, and rides over floor toms so tight that you can't mic it. Sometimes I feel the bitter part of me saying to myself "If you can't man up and set up a drum kit correctly, you don't deserve to sound good." Sadly, my job depends on how good the bad drummer sounds.

[ivmike]

Originally Posted by chrisso

Of course, I also visit drum forums and one of the most widespread opinions is that my sound is my sound, if the engineer can't record it and make me sound good, they suck.

I love those guys that talk like that...never been in a studio before, yet they know better than the engineer...

Good to see you here Chris,

[ericstadium]

"My sound is My sound"

Correct response:

"Your sound sucks"