Monitors or control Rooms that mask your reverb levels???

[Switchcraft]

What do you guys know about this? i notice that when I mix in different rooms or on Different monitors my reverb levels seem to be higher or lower... I just mixed a record in a med/large sized control room on M+K monitors and when i checked the mixes on computer speakers the next day the reverb seemed to be really high... I had this problem with My old KRK V8s in a small room as well. what are the causes of this?

[paterno]

Originally Posted by Switchcraft

What do you guys know about this? i notice that when I mix in different rooms or on Different monitors my reverb levels seem to be higher or lower... I just mixed a record in a med/large sized control room on M+K monitors and when i checked the mixes on computer speakers the next day the reverb seemed to be really high... I had this problem with My old KRK V8s in a small room as well. what are the causes of this?

It could be a few things, but my first thoughts for adding too much reverb are :

-- too much ambient noise in the control room from computers, fans, air conditioning ducts, etc.

-- highly refelective control rooms that induce their own reverb in the monitoring environment.

Candidates for not adding enough are control rooms that are too dead...

Cheers,
John

[djui5]

The studio I worked at for the last year and a half had a reverb problem. I couldn't really hear em sitting in the mix position. If I went down the hall, I could hear it a little better.

It also had an 80hz drop out at the mix position. That really sucked..

The monitors were 1031's with a gene sub. I think it was the room...for sure. I've heard 1031's in a really good room and they sound a lot better than they did in this room.

[juicemaster1500]

Keep a pair of headphones to check the reverb levels, as reference.

And yes, the reverb levels seem different on monitors vs. headphones.

[Ziggy!!]

Originally Posted by paterno

Candidates for not adding enough are control rooms that are too dead...

Cheers,
John

Wouldn't that be for adding too much reverb? If you have a dead room with no reverb you are going to compensate by adding more... If you have a live control room with some reverb present you are going to add less because your ears already hear reverb.

[seriousfun]

(For personal reasons I don't want to defend M&K too much...but...) M&K monitors in general are among the best at giving you the low-level detail that you need to hear to make 'verb judgements. Speaker system setup, room acoustics, gain staging, etc., all can affect whether you can hear these low-level details.

Tannoys with Mastering Labs/Manley crossovers are among the best at delivering this kind of detail. There are, of course, a lot of other appropriate speakers.

Headphones can give you a good indication of reverb level, but a wrong impression of reverb spaciousness, so be careful.

As with every other aspect of a mix, compare the reverb on a variety of speaker systems before the mix is set in stone.

[paterno]

Originally Posted by Ziggy!!

Wouldn't that be for adding too much reverb? If you have a dead room with no reverb you are going to compensate by adding more... If you have a live control room with some reverb present you are going to add less because your ears already hear reverb.

Well, the way I see it, is that you are adding reverb in a dead space, so you are hearing it a lot more clearly than you would in a room with some ambience -- so you'll add reverb until it sounds balanced in that acoustic space. When you get it out into the real world listening situations, which generally are more ambient environments than a dead control room, the reverb will be seem less because there is not enough to be heard over the listening environment's 'noise floor' [for lack of a better term].

Does this make a little more sense? If not, I'll try a different approach...

John

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by paterno

Well, the way I see it, is that you are adding reverb in a dead space, so you are hearing it a lot more clearly than you would in a room with some ambience -- so you'll add reverb until it sounds balanced in that acoustic space. When you get it out into the real world listening situations, which generally are more ambient environments than a dead control room, the reverb will be seem less because there is not enough to be heard over the listening environment's 'noise floor' [for lack of a better term].

Does this make a little more sense? If not, I'll try a different approach...

John

That makes some sense...I've actually had it happen both ways. The biggest thing for me was getting a monitor rig that I could really trust. Once I had that in place I found it was much easier to judge reverb levels, and almost more importantly...I found it was much easier to pick a reverb that's appropriate for the song at hand. You can use lots of the right reverb and you'll never really hear it...but use any of the wrong type and it's painfully obvious that the mix is swimming.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by Ziggy!!

Wouldn't that be for adding too much reverb? If you have a dead room with no reverb you are going to compensate by adding more... If you have a live control room with some reverb present you are going to add less because your ears already hear reverb.

No, the reverb and ambient noise in a room makes it harder to hear artificial reverb so you need to use more to create a "room" for the mix to exist in. The combination of a fairly live room and headphones works out best for judging how much you have.

[cgarges]

Originally Posted by paterno

Well, the way I see it, is that you are adding reverb in a dead space, so you are hearing it a lot more clearly than you would in a room with some ambience -- so you'll add reverb until it sounds balanced in that acoustic space. When you get it out into the real world listening situations, which generally are more ambient environments than a dead control room, the reverb will be seem less because there is not enough to be heard over the listening environment's 'noise floor' [for lack of a better term].

Does this make a little more sense? If not, I'll try a different approach...

John

Not to be argumentative, but I've had exactly the opposite experience from what you mentioned. There are a couple of bouncy rooms in which I work around here and those seems to mess with my perception of what sort of reverb is going on. In those rooms, I tend to feel like there's enough space and when I take mixes out, they feel too dry.

Here's a trick to get a little less room-dependent perception: Put your hands behind your ears and listen. This removes some of what the room is doing (it also filters out highs and lows) and can sometimes give you a better sense of what's going on with levels, sort of like NS10s. You can also turn around and cup your hands over the front of your ears (thumbs out--with the speakers behind you) for a different sort of filtered perception.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[username]

I've always found that when your using monitors in near feild the Reverbs are much more obvious, I usualy find if you get it so it's just a little bit to much on my monitors it translates realy well onto your average hifi speakers.

[paterno]

Originally Posted by cgarges

Not to be argumentative, but I've had exactly the opposite experience from what you mentioned. There are a couple of bouncy rooms in which I work around here and those seems to mess with my perception of what sort of reverb is going on. In those rooms, I tend to feel like there's enough space and when I take mixes out, they feel too dry.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

Hey Chris --

How close are you to the monitors in the 'problem rooms'? I'm wondering if the speakers are farther away or closer in the rooms you have had better results in?

John

[cgarges]

Originally Posted by paterno

Hey Chris --

How close are you to the monitors in the 'problem rooms'? I'm wondering if the speakers are farther away or closer in the rooms you have had better results in?

John

They're generally farther away in the better rooms, but not by much. It really depends on the console. Most of the rooms I work in have monitor shelves on the meter bridge. Only two of the rooms have speaker stands and I don't really like the general monitor placement in one of them. I don't like to be too far away from my nearfields and I also don't like my monitors spread incredibly far apart. One of the biggest problem rooms I deal with frequently seems to have an issue with proper bass trapping, although there's plenty of high-frequency absorption going on. When I take stuff out of there, there's either too much verb (because I'm now second-guessing myself) or too little. If I add enough to seem subtle in a dead room, when I take it out it's never enough and it's easy to go too far.

By the way, have you worked with Zook lately?

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[paterno]

Originally Posted by cgarges

They're generally farther away in the better rooms, but not by much. It really depends on the console. Most of the rooms I work in have monitor shelves on the meter bridge. Only two of the rooms have speaker stands and I don't really like the general monitor placement in one of them. I don't like to be too far away from my nearfields and I also don't like my monitors spread incredibly far apart. One of the biggest problem rooms I deal with frequently seems to have an issue with proper bass trapping, although there's plenty of high-frequency absorption going on. When I take stuff out of there, there's either too much verb (because I'm now second-guessing myself) or too little. If I add enough to seem subtle in a dead room, when I take it out it's never enough and it's easy to go too far.

I asked because I was wondering if you were too far away from the speakers. It can be quite rough going to different rooms. I got an audiophile test CD that i use for speaker placement. It gives bursts of noise in 5 different positions, and can be helpful when you need to set things up. It's on the Chesky 'Gold Stereo and Surround Sound Set-Up Disc' [CHE151]. I am not a fan of speakers on speaker stands myself, at least when there is a console sitting in front of me. Do you bring your own monitors to these sessions? That may help, even if they are small and can be set up as a secondary thing. I even like setting up a set in a different part of the room, like on a outboard gear rack, just for a different perspective.

I've found in dead room that you've got to 'let it fly' a bit to get it to translate. I'm not a very loud listener when I mix, but I bet you may have more consistent results if you try setting the levels at a softer level and not be tempted to change them when you crank things up, even if the urge is there. It may be worth an experiment...

Originally Posted by cgarges

By the way, have you worked with Zook lately?

You know, I thought about him the other day, but i have no idea what happened to him. Haven't heard anyone even mention him in a while. I hope he's doing well whatever he's up to...

Cheers,
john

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by cgarges

I don't like to be too far away from my nearfields and I also don't like my monitors spread incredibly far apart.

What kind of spread and distance do you like? I've seen some people place the monitors about a foot or maybe a foot and a half from each other and when I try that I lose the stereo perspective. I end up sitting just inside of the listening triangle when I'm at the desk (about 3-4' in all directions) and I also walk around the room a lot...check the mix from the futon at the back, blast it and check from the hallway etc.

I'm also one of those guys who brings monitors around to different rooms unless they have something I like, though...I draw the line at carrying an amp!

One of the biggest problem rooms I deal with frequently seems to have an issue with proper bass trapping, although there's plenty of high-frequency absorption going on. When I take stuff out of there, there's either too much verb (because I'm now second-guessing myself) or too little. If I add enough to seem subtle in a dead room, when I take it out it's never enough and it's easy to go too far.

Do you A/B a lot while mixing? I'm constantly doing that and I always try to make a note of reverb levels and the like before I come close to printing. If there's a doubt I'll back the returns down a dB or 2 because I'd rather have it too dry then too wet.

[cgarges]

Originally Posted by paterno

I asked because I was wondering if you were too far away from the speakers. It can be quite rough going to different rooms.

Tell me about it! I've been doing it pretty regularly for the last four years. I pretty much at the mercy of the physical setup wherever I am. I've found a few tricks to even things out a bit.

Originally Posted by paterno

Do you bring your own monitors to these sessions? That may help, even if they are small and can be set up as a secondary thing.

Yeah, I finally got a set that I really like last year. That's made a HUGE difference. It's so important to have speakers that you can relate to. I think everybody wants to hear certain things from their mixes and finding a set of speakers that translates that for you is such an important and personal thing.

Originally Posted by paterno

I've found in dead room that you've got to 'let it fly' a bit to get it to translate. I'm not a very loud listener when I mix, but I bet you may have more consistent results if you try setting the levels at a softer level and not be tempted to change them when you crank things up, even if the urge is there. It may be worth an experiment...

Oh sure. I do the majority of my mixing at really low volumes, especially when I'm dealing with levels. I find that I can hear frequencies better with the speakers cranked, but I try to do that as little as possible. Balances can get so skewed and it can really wear on the ears. For me, at least...

Originally Posted by paterno

You know, I thought about him the other day, but i have no idea what happened to him. Haven't heard anyone even mention him in a while. I hope he's doing well whatever he's up to...

He's been doing a lot of stuff with Julian Coryell. He worked for JJ Puig for a bit, then split to do freelance stuff. I haven't talked to him in a while. Last time I talked to him, he seemed to be doing well.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[cgarges]

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

What kind of spread and distance do you like? I've seen some people place the monitors about a foot or maybe a foot and a half from each other and when I try that I lose the stereo perspective. I end up sitting just inside of the listening triangle when I'm at the desk (about 3-4' in all directions)

A foot and a half won't tell you anything about width. At least, it doesn't tell me anything about width. (I'm not counting mono-compatibility as width. Although lately, I've been using NS10s about 8 inches apart in addition to my own speakers.) I've been in a lot of places where the monitors are four-to-five feet apart. I worked in a place like this for thre years and kept wondering why my mixes sounded really wide and deep in the control room and really two-dimensional when I took them home. I started moving my monitors in to more like three feet or so (it depends on the room and the console and such) and although I had to work a little harder to get depth and dimension, it was really paying off in the translation. I usually set the monitors up and listen to some stuff I know and futz around a bit until I find the width that I like in that particular room. Ever since I responded to that letter in TapeOp, I've had a lot of people ask me about that.

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

I also walk around the room a lot...check the mix from the futon at the back, blast it and check from the hallway etc.

Oh, sure. I do the same thing. There's a few spots in every room that will tell you a lot. Listening from outside the room or down the hall or whatever at low volumes generally lets you in on a few things, as well. I like to spend a lot of time in the client position, too, just to know what they're hearing.

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

I'm also one of those guys who brings monitors around to different rooms unless they have something I like, though...I draw the line at carrying an amp!

Unfortunately, so many places around here have active monitors that I have to carry an amp.

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

Do you A/B a lot while mixing? I'm constantly doing that and I always try to make a note of reverb levels and the like before I come close to printing. If there's a doubt I'll back the returns down a dB or 2 because I'd rather have it too dry then too wet.

You mean A/Bing between different speakers? Absolutely! I guess it depends on the studios and what they've got set up and what sort of access there is to the control room sends, but yeah, I do. And usually, I prefer my own monitors and a set of NS10s or something sort of crappy than just my monitors and a nebulous set of mains.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by cgarges

You mean A/Bing between different speakers? Absolutely! I guess it depends on the studios and what they've got set up and what sort of access there is to the control room sends, but yeah, I do. And usually, I prefer my own monitors and a set of NS10s or something sort of crappy than just my monitors and a nebulous set of mains.

Actually I ment A/Bing to other mixes! I do that all the time...if something that's pretty wet comes up across as dry then I know I can push the verb in that room.

I switch between monitors at points I feel are important, after the initial balances come together...placing backing vox and always when making any kind of final tweaks before printing the mix. I'll set the little mono speaker in the Studer at a whisper and then swap to the mains at Memorex volume and if the mix can hold together then it has a fighting chance of translating to just about anywhere.

More and more I've been trying to get into mixing in a 'mastering' style where I stay with one set of speakers and park the volume knob for the majority of the song. That seems to help a little, really downplays the whole Fletcher/Munson curve and takes part of it out of the equasion.

[cgarges]

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

Actually I ment A/Bing to other mixes! I do that all the time...if something that's pretty wet comes up across as dry then I know I can push the verb in that room.

I used to do it all the time, but I've really gotten away from that in the last few years. Not sure why. I guess I don't like shifting my focus.

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by cgarges

I used to do it all the time, but I've really gotten away from that in the last few years. Not sure why. I guess I don't like shifting my focus.

I don't see it as shifting focus, for me it's a reality check to make sure I haven't mixed myself into a corner. Too many times I've mixed for hours & hours and it's not until I A/B to another mix that I notice that the vocal might be way too loud or buried or whatever.

Plus I dig throwing people off when their music is angry rwak and I toss in Peter Gabriel or Dr. Dre.