Shinybox 46MXL vs Apex 205 w/Michael Joly Premium Mod

[EvolutionSound]

So I'm looking to buy a long ribbon mic for under $400 and I've narrowed my search down to the Shinybox 46MXL or a Michael Joly modded Apex 205 w/Lundhal & shockmount.

I've read a lot of threads on GS about these mics and there seems to be plenty of advocates for both. At this point it seems to be six of one, half-dozen of the other, but I'm leaning towards the Shinybox partly because it comes with a nice case, etc. (it really seems to be that close between these two mics that the "extras" have become the deciding factor) unless someone has something to say that my swing me in a different direction.

I am looking for a ribbon to use on (1) female vocals (2) acoustic guitar (3) room mic for drums.

Thanks for any feedback anyone may have to offer on this!!

[tapehiss]

i've heard amazing things for both, and i think they are the best products for the buck...

i also like the accesories with the shinybox....
you get a case that stores the mic upright, which will keep the ribbon from eventually sagging.
also, it comes with a great spider shockmount...

and jon (shinybox) makes his own ribbons that aren't encompassed in a blue body....
nothing wrong with that if you like blue.

no qualms with the Oktavamod (I'd love to try it), i think he does amazing things, my only problem is with apex, and the appearance of the thing.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by tapehiss

iand, its not blue plastic.

There is no plastic on the Apex 205. They are built like a tank, and from what I can tell, pretty much the same mic as the shinybox.

For the OP, if you're going to use it on ac guitars, I'd suggest getting a FEThead from MJ no matter which mic you get. They're about 100 and will net you another 20dB of clean gain which you will need on almost any pre if you're doing fingerpicked ac guitar. thumbsup

[EvolutionSound]

Originally Posted by drBill

I'd suggest getting a FEThead from MJ no matter which mic you get. thumbsup

Thanks for the advise. I will be running the mic through a Focusrite ISA428 which has 60 db of clean gain, you think that won't be enough?

[Rev2010]

Originally Posted by EvolutionSound

I will be running the mic through a Focusrite ISA428 which has 60 db of clean gain, you think that won't be enough?

I don't have either of these ribbons but I have an MXL R77 ribbon and my Mackie Onyx which has 60db of gain has enough and a little more room for my ribbon. In other words, I'll getting clipping if I put it all the way up to 60db and have a singer sing moderatly loud so I have to back off on the gain a few db. So, if you're using a pre with 60db of gain I think you'll be ok with acoustic.

However, I'm planning on getting a Fethead anyway for the other advantages I've read from users. Some say that the noise of turning your pre's up to 60db is more than what you get when using the equivalent level with the Fethead inline. Someone also mentioned a reduction in hum, which I have a very slight amount of with my ribbon - supposedly the Fethead alleviates this with a better impedance matching, or so I've read. Of course the hum isn't even hearable with singing or whatever else going on, but since I know it's there... well... you know They say it also opens up the sound a bit - basically making the top end a little brighter or whatnot.


Rev.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by EvolutionSound

Thanks for the advise. I will be running the mic through a Focusrite ISA428 which has 60 db of clean gain, you think that won't be enough?

Should be - but again, it depends on what you're recording. If it's very delicate finger picked Ac Gtrs, you might need more. The FETheads are good to have. I was using the 205's in a big room (church) for pipe organ and needed more than I could get out of the pre's I was using when the Organ was being played softly. That's what prompted my search that yeilded the FETheads.

Not mandatory, but sooner or later, you'll be glad you have one or two. thumbsup

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Rev2010

Some say that the noise of turning your pre's up to 60db is more than what you get when using the equivalent level with the Fethead inline.

That was my observation.

[warhead]

The ShinyBox looks and sounds the part, I have not compared to a 205 mod but with the SB you are getting a mic with a rebuilt ribbon motor / element and Lundahl output transformer, as well as a great shock mount with the ShinyBox 46MXL. The bodies aren't quite the same either, again I prefer the look of the 46MXL. No waiting, it just ships out when ordered.

That mic has this natural yet open sound (open for a ribbon) and a very linear response to my ears that works on anything you need a big, smooth sound. In the ShinyBox line I'd take it over the Cinemag model for your stated needs.

That silky finish / logo are nice, the Apex is pretty gawdy in person.

My biased opinion.

War

[EvolutionSound]

Originally Posted by warhead

My biased opinion.

Thanks Warren - I just ordered the 46MXL from your site.

I eagerly await its arrival!

[warhead]

Enjoy the Zen Blend coffee too.

War

[Rev2010]

Does anyone have a frequent plot image of the ShinyBox 46MXL? I've e-mailed ShinyBox and am waiting for a reply but figured why not check here too.


Rev.

[riantide]

+1 on the Shinybox. It's a really great mic for a really great price. I've used the Lundahl model extensively and I've come to really rely on it. Exceptional customer service as well.

For vocals and acoustic I typically like to have an outboard EQ handy for shaping the top and bottom, but then again I'd say the same about a Royer, so go figure.

[reddirt]

Michael's Apex mod is the duck's - used it on an edgy vox last week, an harmonica yesterday and will be doing an accordion tonight.
Check out Dr Bill's piano files if you ever need convincing
Cheers, Ross

[EvolutionSound]

Originally Posted by riantide

For vocals and acoustic ...

What kind of preamp are you using? How much gain do you find you need particularly for acoustic? Do you have any problems with noise when miking quiet sources (as mentioned above) when you crank the gain on your preamp? Thanks!

[ben_allison]

Was going to start a thread asking this question, but am choosing to bump.

A lot of Dr Bill's demo clips of the MJ205 are really impressing me. I keep picking them blind, over and over, on different sources.

Clearly, I happen to like what's doing.

But, getting 205's, shipping them for mods, and having them shipped back is a bit... discouraging?

So, I'm curious as to how the Shinybox's compare in girth and detail?

I believe much of the stock mic is similar, so they should be in the same ball park, no? Even after mods (they both get Lundhal trannys). The several advantages I see are that the Shinybox seems better built, comes with a shockmount, is less hassle/back and forth, and ends up costing less.

[ben_allison]

No one?

[PDC]

Bump. I am also curious.

[pan60]

i like Jon and he does great work, happy with my ShinnyBox: )~

[Michael_Joly]

Originally Posted by ben_allison

Was going to start a thread asking this question, but am choosing to bump.

A lot of Dr Bill's demo clips of the MJ205 are really impressing me. I keep picking them blind, over and over, on different sources.

Clearly, I happen to like what's doing.

But, getting 205's, shipping them for mods, and having them shipped back is a bit... discouraging?

So, I'm curious as to how the Shinybox's compare in girth and detail?

I believe much of the stock mic is similar, so they should be in the same ball park, no? Even after mods (they both get Lundhal trannys). The several advantages I see are that the Shinybox seems better built, comes with a shockmount, is less hassle/back and forth, and ends up costing less.

Hey Ben, thanks for listening - and for the kind words.

Other nice features of the Shinybox ribbon are the handsome champagne finish and storage case. The blue paint job on the 205 is rather industrial looking (though a shock mount will obscure most of it) and storage is just vinyl bag, cut foam and paperboard box. Btw - most international folks have me buy their mic-to-be-mod'd in the States so shipping is just one-way to them.

[ben_allison]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Hey Ben, thanks for listening - and for the kind words.

Other nice features of the Shinybox ribbon are the handsome champagne finish and storage case. The blue paint job on the 205 is rather industrial looking (though a shock mount will obscure most of it) and storage is just vinyl bag, cut foam and paperboard box. Btw - most international folks have me buy their mic-to-be-mod'd in the States so shipping is just one-way to them.

Wow thanks MJ! I thought you'd left GS; nice to see you posting!

[EvolutionSound]

Originally Posted by ben_allison

The several advantages I see are that the Shinybox seems better built, comes with a shockmount, is less hassle/back and forth, and ends up costing less.

I have been very satisfied with my two Shinybox 46MXL's. However, I don't have need of two anymore, and have one for sale if you're interested. $300 + shipping including box and shockmount (like-new condition).

[ben_allison]

Originally Posted by EvolutionSound

I have been very satisfied with my two Shinybox 46MXL's. However, I don't have need of two anymore, and have one for sale if you're interested. $300 + shipping including box and shockmount (like-new condition).

Thanks for the offer!

In the time since I first posted in this thread, I've done some research and have decided to get some 205's and mod them myself. I've built a bunch of stuff (pedals, pres) and so I'm up for the challenge of modding a mic! Should be fun. The mods seem simple enough, though I'm aware the whole process is a VERY delicate on (I'm slightly nervous about possibly having to retension a ribbon ).

Plus I kinda like the industrial blue finish. I can pretend it was a standard issue mic from the Soviet Union or something.

[monkeyxx]

Keep in mind like Warren stated that the Shinybox has a rebuilt ribbon, using a thinner material of 1.8 to 2.5 microns depending on which of his models you choose, and the Oktavamod mic keeps the same thicker (I think, someone correct me) stock ribbon and just has the tension corrected if needed.

I haven't built a ribbon mic yet, and plan to, but the 1.8 to 2.5u thickness is more along the lines of the classic and high end ribbon microphones of yesterday and today, where the chinese use a thicker material than those designs. I know this is only one component of a complex and interactive design that is a ribbon microphone, but I thought I'd throw that out there.

The only high end ribbon mics I'm aware of that use thicker ribbons are the beyerdynamics, at 4 microns, but those are a wildly different design than the typical figure 8 long/medium ribbon. I think the chinese ribbons are in the 5 to 6 micron range. This does factor into the overall sound, along with tension, ribbon material alloy composition, corrugation style, magnet strength and assembly, surrounding acoustic shape/path/design, transformer, headbasket design etc.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by monkeyxx

Keep in mind like Warren stated that the Shinybox has a rebuilt ribbon, using a thinner material of 1.8 to 2.5 microns depending on which of his models you choose, and the Oktavamod mic keeps the same thicker (I think, someone correct me) stock ribbon and just has the tension corrected if needed.

I've heard that's old Chinese ribbons, but I'm not 100% on that. I do know that if MJ felt that it was needing replacement to get a better sound, he'd do it. He's already got the motor apart to adjust the tension, so it's no big deal to replace. And he may, I have no idea. I just use the dam things.

For me though, the beauty of the MJ 205 is in how he TUNES the ribbon. I don't know what thickness it is, whether stock or replaced, but the TUNING of the way he puts it together - ie, how much tension on the ribbon turns out to be just magic for me. Like others have said, I'm sure the SB is great too, but I'm not going to mess with something that's done so well for me. thumbsupthumbsup for ribbons.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by ben_allison

I've built a bunch of stuff (pedals, pres) and so I'm up for the challenge of modding a mic! Should be fun. The mods seem simple enough, though I'm aware the whole process is a VERY delicate on (I'm slightly nervous about possibly having to retension a ribbon ).

Ben, if you want optimum performance, you're GOING to have to re-tension the ribbon - even if it's not saggy. That's the magic mojo part of it for me. I'm sure MJ will tell you what to do if you ask him.

[idylldon]

I have two of the Tape Op group buy ribbon mics, which was facilitated by Jon before he started Shinybox I believe. After using them for a bit, I removed pretty much all the blast protection (kept the inner "silk"), installed new 1.8u ribbons (this thanks to Michael Joly giving me the info on where to purchase the material), put some dampening material in the housing, and finished off by installing Cinemag transformers. I also bought a couple of the largest MXL shock mounts I could find because these mics need them. I use the mics all the time and they have never failed to deliver an amazing sound that always gets compliments.

My point? Well, both of these guys, Jon and Michael, do great work and have shared their knowledge freely. Either one of them can provide you with a quality ribbon mic that I have no doubt you'll be pleased with. Frankly, if I added up the cost of parts and figured in a small amount for the time I spent working on the mics, I would have been better off just buying them from either of these two fine suppliers.

Cheers,
--
Don

[Michael_Joly]

Originally Posted by ben_allison

Thanks for the offer!

In the time since I first posted in this thread, I've done some research and have decided to get some 205's and mod them myself. I've built a bunch of stuff (pedals, pres) and so I'm up for the challenge of modding a mic! Should be fun. The mods seem simple enough, though I'm aware the whole process is a VERY delicate on (I'm slightly nervous about possibly having to retension a ribbon ).

Plus I kinda like the industrial blue finish. I can pretend it was a standard issue mic from the Soviet Union or something.

Ho Ho Ho, Merry Christmas - here's a little gift for you I'd like to drop off while rehearsing my Phoenix act.

Back in this post I describe two different methods of setting the ribbon tension. But read my paraphrase of the BBC / Coles 4038 "stretch and relax" ribbon precondition procedure. And here's an overall summary of the work you can use as a check list - basically the work I've been doing on these since the legendary "I'm in for two and I can pay" Tape Op group buy...

...Single layer headbasket conversion, high frequency resonator "waffle plate removal", ribbon replacement (cut, corrugate, pre-condition, install, tension), wire routing / securing for minimum hum pick up, lock-down all nuts, body cavity filled with closed cell foam. Devil's in the details ; )

Some caveats - work carefully on the headbasket so as not to pull the outer wire mesh away from the frame, be really careful with steel tools - the magnets love to suck them (and nuts) into the ribbon. They think its great fun to destroy the ribbons this way. Don't skip the wire dressing. Enjoy!

[ben_allison]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Ho Ho Ho, Merry Christmas - here's a little gift for you I'd like to drop off while rehearsing my Phoenix act.

Hahaha there is a Santa!

Thanks MJ!!!

[monkeyxx]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Ho Ho Ho, Merry Christmas - here's a little gift for you I'd like to drop off while rehearsing my Phoenix act.

Back in this post I describe two different methods of setting the ribbon tension. But read my paraphrase of the BBC / Coles 4038 "stretch and relax" ribbon precondition procedure. And here's an overall summary of the work you can use as a check list - basically the work I've been doing on these since the legendary "I'm in for two and I can pay" Tape Op group buy...

...Single layer headbasket conversion, high frequency resonator "waffle plate removal", ribbon replacement (cut, corrugate, pre-condition, install, tension), wire routing / securing for minimum hum pick up, lock-down all nuts, body cavity filled with closed cell foam. Devil's in the details ; )

Some caveats - work carefully on the headbasket so as not to pull the outer wire mesh away from the frame, be really careful with steel tools - the magnets love to suck them (and nuts) into the ribbon. They think its great fun to destroy the ribbons this way. Don't skip the wire dressing. Enjoy!

that's great, thanks a lot michael. that's really going to come in handy for me when I start DIY ribbon fest '011

[retractablezing]

dunno about the Shinybox, but the 205 that Michael modified for me ages ago remains the biggest and most natural sounding mic i've ever owned. still miss it. cannot recommend Michael's work enough.