China Mic Trip Pictures and Thoughts

[Marik]

Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman

That's like insisting on paying money to a descendant of Beethoven for using a phrase from the Moonlight Sonata, or that a portion of all turntable sales must eventually go to Edison. Simply not true.

Once again, to reitterate my previous statement, there is a very big difference between using an idea and just copying a final product. Just contact a lawyer and you will know the difference.

Best, M

[rack gear]

michael - thanks for sharing those photos, although I'm not sure about their authenticity.

I thought Chinese "people" had horns and tails and I'm not seeing that in any of the pictures - these "people" look suspiciously like human beings... are you sure you were in China?

From what I've heard these images do not show any Chinese "people".

















sarcasm intended for the humorously impaired

[Michael_Joly]

Originally Posted by Gretschman

Those are your words , and yes they do contain some finger pointing by you and the air of a racist connotation to them. Calling me Rush Limbaugh and accusing me of
generalizations , shifting focus ect. , does not validate anything on your part , does it ?...

Gretschman, you did it again - misquoted me. I did not call you Rush Limbaugh. I said you were: "Pulling a Rush Limbaugh "race card" obfuscation...". My meaning being that you used a technique, similar to that employed by Rush Limbaugh, to obfuscate my original point and shift blame to me. That is far different than calling you a "Rush Limbaugh". I'm a pretty careful writer. Please try to meet me half-way by being a careful reader.

Calling attention to your misrepresentation of my meaning, and correcting you to keep my message clear is my right. In our free society you have the freedom to misquote and misrepresent what I've said, but I will not let it stand unchallenged and uncorrected.

[Gebo]

In the US a patent lasts 20 years. So Neuman designed their capsule, no one could use that design for 20 years. That time period is up, so its fair game. If you think this is wrong than your going to need to:

stop using a computer
stop driving a car
stop using a telephone
stop drinking soda that comes out of a soda fountain
stop doing about 1000 other things your likely to do on a regular basis.

[MonoBrow]

Thanks for sharing these photos and thoughts about your trip.Always interresting to read first hand experience.thumbsup

[Sonic Lush]

Originally Posted by Fluxpod

Thanks for sharing these photos and thoughts about your trip. Always interresting to read first hand experience.thumbsup

ditto

+1

[Marik]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

re: "cheap foreign labor" - lets get specific here. Near the top of this thread I stated I started down my road to manufacturing by trying to get local machine shops interested in my project. The did not want to take it on because they're used to sucking on the tit of the US Defense Department and can't compete on the basis of their own value-add as determined by the world market - and not some artificially inflated value established by a consortium of contractors and good-old boys in good standing with the US Department of Defense.

Michael,

Please don't tell me that. As a manufacturer, I made a lot of local research and have visited literally almost every CNC shop here in SLC. While I could see in some of them this kind of attitude, I paid attention that MANY of them were EAGER to take ANY project and work UNDERPAID.

Moreover, if you make some search on ebay, you will find quite a few US machine shops trying to advertise their will to work, which shows quite a desperate economical situation here in US. I can understand there are not many machine shops in your Springfield and their "elite" attitude, but as far as I know, Boston is not too far from you, and could be considered local (or at least US based). Have you checked any? It is all about willingness and desire, I guess.

Best, M

[Michael_Joly]

Originally Posted by Marik

... In any case, my student's father is a patent and copyright lawyer. I will talk to him about this issue just to see if legally it is still a theft...

Marik, you know any IP lawyer worth their salt is not going to offer a hypothetical opinion on some generalization. Intellectual property infringement requires lots of prior art search, a thorough review of claims and evidence documenting alleged infringement. Unless some party is willing to retain your student's father in an IP infringement case his opinion will be just that - an opinion, not a judgment arrived at through discovery and deliberation in a court of law.


BTW - this sure beats watching high def football as a way of spending a nice day after Thanksgiving in some friendly male war game play.

[Gretschman]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Gretschman, you did it again - misquoted me. I did not call you Rush Limbaugh. I said: "Pulling a Rush Limbaugh "race card" obfuscation...". My meaning being that you used a technique, similar to that employed by Rush Limbaugh, to obfuscate my original point. That is far different than calling you a "Rush Limbaugh". I'm a pretty careful writer. Please try to meet me half-way by being a careful reader.

OK , lets move on then .

If you want specifics , facts , and hard information on this subject matter , and you must , because you have posted several times that you demand facts and not generalizations , I will ask my very close friend , who works for a big box company , in the pro audio section , at that management level , to fill me in on the " Returns "
and issues of Chinese manufactured Mic's
They sell them all day long , so they would know if there are issues , how many ,
and how they handle those issues .

I do not know this information and neither do you , so , lets find out .

[Mark Kaufman]

Originally Posted by Gretschman

OK , lets move on then .

If you want specifics , facts , and hard information on this subject matter , and you must , because you have posted several times that you demand facts and not generalizations , I will ask my very close friend , who works for a big box company , in the pro audio section , at that management level , to fill me in on the " Returns "
and issues of Chinese manufactured Mic's
They sell them all day long , so they would know if there are issues , how many ,
and how they handle those issues .

I do not know this information and neither do you , so , lets find out .

But that whole exercise is based on "all Chinese mics". Years later, it will be interesting to apply the same exercise to the percentage of returns of Mr. Joly's new mics.

[Michael_Joly]

Originally Posted by Marik

Michael,

Please don't tell me that. As a manufacturer, I made a lot of local research and have visited literally almost every CNC shop here in SLC. While I could see in some of them this kind of attitude, I paid attention that MANY of them were EAGER to take ANY project and work UNDERPAID.

Moreover, if you make some search on ebay, you will find quite a few US machine shops trying to advertise their will to work, which shows quite a desperate economical situation here in US. I can understand there are not many machine shops in your Springfield and their "elite" attitude, but as far as I know, Boston is not too far from you, and could be considered local (or at least US based). Have you checked any? It is all about willingness and desire, I guess.

Best, M

Yeah, the Salt Lake City area is a whole different story than defense heavy Connecticut and Massachusetts. Pratt and Whitney, Sikorsky, Smith and Wesson, General Dynamics ...I could go on and on talking about how small subcontractors can't live with out mama defense's tit. Same situation for small shops in the Detroit area who subcontract to the US automobile industry. Talk about another boondoggle - now the US tax-payers are paying for years of hubris and mismanagement by the big three US auto manufacturers. Try to find somebody in Detroit who'll take on a tiny little microphone manufacturing project from scratch.

Oh, so its OK for me to shop in Salt Lake City for a machine shop but not in China - even though both paths "outsource" jobs away from Springfield, MA where I live?

[Gebo]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Yeah, the Salt Lake City area is a whole different story than defense heavy Connecticut and Massachusetts. Pratt and Whitney, Sikorsky, Smith and Wesson, General Dynamics ...I could go on and on talking about how small subcontractors can't live with out mama defense's tit. Same situation for small shops in the Detroit area who subcontract to the US automobile industry. Talk about another boondoggle - now the US tax-payers are paying for years of hubris and mismanagement by the big three US auto manufacturers. Try to find somebody in Detroit who'll take a tiny little microphone manufacturing project from scratch.

Oh, so its OK for me to shop in Salt Lake City for a machine shop but not in China - even though both paths "outsource" jobs away from Springfield, MA where I live?

Id like to note that I am posting from my desk at a very large insurance company in Springfield. Do I get some sort of townie discount if I have you mod my RM-5?

[Michael_Joly]

Originally Posted by Gretschman

OK , lets move on then .

If you want specifics , facts , and hard information on this subject matter , and you must , because you have posted several times that you demand facts and not generalizations , I will ask my very close friend , who works for a big box company , in the pro audio section , at that management level , to fill me in on the " Returns "
and issues of Chinese manufactured Mic's
They sell them all day long , so they would know if there are issues , how many ,
and how they handle those issues .

I do not know this information and neither do you , so , lets find out .

Cool. I'd be interested in this information for statistical reasons myself. Because I'm embarking on a zero-defect path and would like to know how much better I'm doing than a run of the mill, lowest price manufacturer / rebrander of Chinese mics.

[tapehiss]

sure there are copies...... but your only blaming one manufacturer because his partnership with a chinese factory....

when are you gonna begin blaming: PELUSO, BEESNEEZ, PEARLMAN, BOCK, WUNDER, LAWSON, ETC.for their copies of the u47?
(sacriledge, you don't even mention so and so in the same sentence right?????




and i'm sure you didn't all create your own recording technique's either, but must have used "theft" for your own benefit. I'm sure the music you make is "theft" from a pervious artist that spent decades honing their style......
and i'm sure people will steal your sound eventually as well.....

but i think everyone agrees neumann no longer makes the quality they used to according to the general gearslutz consensus, so if a design goes public, why shouldn't other manufacturers and those that cant afford 10k for a mic try what they can to sound how they want.

[Michael_Joly]

Originally Posted by Gebo

Id like to note that I am posting from my desk at a very large insurance company in Springfield. Do I get some sort of townie discount if I have you mod my RM-5?

Yeah. Just to show I'm commited to my local peeps I'll give anybody in Springfield, MA a 15% discount. Just email ahead of time for a discount code.

[Gebo]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Yeah. Just to show I'm commited to my local peeps I'll give anybody in Springfield, MA a 15% discount. Just email ahead of time for a discount code.

I hate to break the news but some guy in Springfield China offered me a 16% discount...

For real though thats awesome, Ill have to see what my finances look like after the Holidays! I dont use that mic much, it just isnt great as is.

[tapehiss]

how about springfield,, oregon?????????


home of the simpsons...........


i don't live there, but i'm close enough

[illacov]

must --not---open--big---fat---mouth.......

Pro---fessional cccc conduct!!

Dammit!

Peace
Illumination

[Michael_Joly]

Originally Posted by Tomer1

...
Same thing exists in israel, thats why countries with an aconomy which is largly based on defence & military need wars (they may not want them though), it generates money. If the war in iraq would have worked as it was planned by the bush goverment and the US economy would boom as it was suppose to everyone would have supported it.

Thanks for this side bar observation Tomer1. You're absolutely right. Had the war in Iraq gone the way Rumsfeld, Cheney and Bush had in mind the US would have locked up Iraq's oil resources under the guise of kicking Bin Laden's butt and US drivers could go on blithely motoring their Navigators and other huge SUVs.

Promotion of "us vs. them" thinking leads ultimately to war-making, not peace-making and creates economies built on destructive values that do little to benefit the tax payers who make it all possible. Promotions of "win / win" thinking encourages people to find ways of co-existing for mutual benefit and growth.

[Marik]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Marik, you know any IP lawyer worth their salt is not going to offer a hypothetical opinion on some generalization. Intellectual property infringement requires lots of prior art search, a thorough review of claims and evidence documenting alleged infringement. Unless some party is willing to retain your student's father in an IP infringement case his opinion will be just that - an opinion, not a judgment arrived at through discovery and deliberation in a court of law.


BTW - this sure beats watching high def football as a way of spending a nice day after Thanksgiving in some friendly male war game play.

Well Michael, indeed, we are talking about opinions. You sure made up your mind (and BTW, don't take it wrong, I don't blame you) and by no means I am trying to change it. I guess, the reason I chimed in is to make two points:

1) Yes, there is stealing in lawless China--stealing of ideas, technologies, entire Royer microphones and other products, like Wima capacitors, Swiss watches, etc. etc. etc....
2) If one had a desire to make an effort to make a good product locally, or at least in the same state (considering right now the cars on highways are much faster than horses on country roads, the trip to Boston is much faster than from Tula to Yasnaja Poliana some 100 years ago ), or in the same country, then pricewise there would be no problem to make in US very competitive high quality product.
Other than that, all is good

Best, M

[tapehiss]

funny how in the end this boiled down to a difference of opinion between the two guys hailed as pretty much the 'mic mod kings'

[Gebo]

Originally Posted by Marik

Well Michael, indeed, we are talking about opinions. You sure made up your mind (and BTW, don't take it wrong, I don't blame you) and by no means I am trying to change it. I guess, the reason I chimed in is to make two points:

1) Yes, there is stealing in lawless China--stealing of ideas, technologies, entire Royer microphones and other products, like Wima capacitors, Swiss watches, etc. etc. etc....
2) If one had a desire to make an effort to make a good product locally, or at least in the same state (considering right now the cars on highways are much faster than horses on country roads, the trip to Boston is much faster than from Tula to Yasnaja Poliana some 100 years ago ), or in the same country, then pricewise there would be no problem to make in US very competitive high quality product.
Other than that, all is good

Best, M

Are you implying that all it takes to get a US factory to bring their price down to that of a Chinese factory is "desire" on behalf of the customer?

[Chrislpp]

That first mic, Re20 inspired?

[Michael_Joly]

Marik, I admire your dedication to doing it locally. You've got some machining chops and equipment I don't have so you personally can R&D and direct local manufacturers (or perhaps do it yourself) to execute on your designs. As I've said before, I think you personally can do well as a boutique ribbon mic manufacturer / transformer house. You've got a personal brand that means high quality. And "made locally" is strong brand equity as well. Unlike me, you don't have a published price point for your work that a new "signature branded" mic can be evaluated against. So you're free to create a new mic, or line of mics and postion them at a price point that will allow reasonable profit in relationship to your costs.

I've chosen to augment my personal skill set and available resources with complimentary skills and resources from vendors that can allow me to produce products at a price / value point consistent with my activities to date - a value proposition that my market regards very favorably. The answer, for me, like many "big name" mic manufacturers is to tap into the skills and resources of a vibrant microphone manufacturing industry in China.

[tapehiss]

Originally Posted by Gebo

Are you implying that all it takes to get a US factory to bring their price down to that of a Chinese factory is "desire" on behalf of the customer?

thats very idealistic, which i view as a pleasant characteristic....
but impossible....
a country gets to be a certain way for a reason, and the way america has become will never change without the passing of 200 years, or a revolution, and i dont see neither happening soon.....

sure, would be nice if america started producing again, but that aint gonna happen because in a capitalist society, the costs outway the benefits.

[Gebo]

Originally Posted by tapehiss

thats very idealistic, which i view as a pleasant characteristic....
but impossible....
a country gets to be a certain way for a reason, and the way america has become will never change without the passing of 200 years, or a revolution, and i dont see neither happening soon.....

sure, would be nice if america started producing again, but that aint gonna happen because in a capitalist society, the costs outway the benefits.

I 100% Agree.

But maybe the Mormon labor market is an untapped resource?

[c.gymer]

I would just like to chime in to say that hopefully the back and fourth about theft and China is over and the thread can get back on topic. Regardless of those issues, I for one would love to hear more from anyone trying to bring a new mic to market; the fact that it is Michael just makes it all the more interesting for me!

Let's get back on topic guys and put the issues in the moan zone.

Ta.

[Michael_Joly]

I'm all for that. Maybe we can agree to disagree for a while and shift the topic slightly.

I'd actually like to hear more from fellow Gearslutz born or living in China. I'd like to learn more about what young bands like Rustic (pictured above) think about gear. Do folks in China have forums to discuss equipment or is knowledge gained by reading English-language forums like Gearslutz?

Do young people in China dream of and work towards being recording engineers like folks do here? What do typical (if there is such a thing) bedroom, basement, garage, small commercial facilities look like? What do people do with their time when not recording music - work a 'straight' job or is music / voice recording a gig that can provide a decent living on its own? Lets give our brothers and sisters in China some space to talk (but as of this writing its 5:22 AM in Eastern China, so it could be a while before we see some responses).

[Corran]

So someone finally does what everyone has kind of wanted to do at one time or another - go to China and actually get high-quality mics made with a commitment to quality, the Chinese workers, and a price-point, and many people jump on him acting like he's the reason we are in an economic slump?

Come on people. It's a global market and Joly is doing something important and I for one am very interested in seeing what kind of high-quality mics he designs. And it looks like he is dedicated to seeing fair working conditions and a decent price that isn't in the range of boutique mic manufacturers (who still have some things made in China!)

I have yet to meet one of these "no China" mentality people who doesn't in fact own hundreds of items manufactured in China, from shoes to toys to pro audio gear.

Get over it guys.

Oh and if the copyright is over it's not theft. Let's be real.

[big country]

for me it comes down to the issue of trade and culture

are we trading the Chinese paper for Mic's or are they getting something
beside paper and is this venture just more US debt while one guy gets rich

ultimately do we know what the trade is and its trade effects years down the road



America is capable of making things the less this generation
makes? whats next generation going to be like
issues of technology now and future

are people going to china for ease of manufacturing going to take responsibility.


I hate to say it but many inventions, making and owning are part of mine and others culture
who has rights to them to undercut what is left of our American manufacturing

I am an inventor my self and would be deeply saddened if someone from
the next generation took my invention and made tons of money from
Chinese manufacturing ,just for a quick sale
instead of going through the pains of the ass of starting a factory, took the turn key easy way
In theory
I would claim my idea mine then my cities then my states then my counties property and in that order

sure there are laws but laws are there to protect

basically we need sufficiency and how much should not be determined
by saving money