China Mic Trip Pictures and Thoughts

[xfreddex]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Tell us more! What studio did you use? Equipment? Process?

We recorded in a new studio called Nice Tune Studio. Kinda on the low end side but alright compared with many other studios in Beijing. It was four bands in 10 days.. Very intense! I had to make the best I could out of the stuff the studio had, and had really no time to experiment but it worked out well in the end. We recorded four songs with each bands, putting down one instrument at the time. The others bands was: Birdstriking, Flyx and Old Fashion. Cool bands all of them.

The equipment was;
cheap drumset
VOX AC30
Fender bassamp
digi 888/24
SSL Alpha VHD and M-Audio Octane preamps.
SM57's (snare top, toms, kick inside, guitars), Audix I5 (guitars, snare bottom), AKG C414(?) (kick outside, some vocals), Audix D4 (bass), Rode NTK (vocals, room) and cheap Superlux scd's (OH's)

My thoughts on the gear: the SSL preamp sounded really good, better than people give it credit for.. The Octane preamp also sounded better then I imagined, alot better then some cheap Presonus and Focusrite gear I've worked with. I wasn't impressed with the Rode NTK.. sounded great as a room mic but I found it to be too sibilant with most voices.. The superlux microphones sounded like ass. I really wished I brought my own OH mics (Beyer MC930)..

Rustic actually won the chinese GBOB contest and will go to england to represent China and a chance to win 10 000 USD

[Tomer1]

Accually I saw a doco on how Benz are having trouble manufacturing their cars in their chinese factories.
Quality control issues and very slow work,not meating deadlines.
They also showed the new closed communities for the new milioners arising in china. Looked absolutly amazing,
Everybody is riding a rolls royes with a hired driver.

[kidvybes]

Originally Posted by synthoid

The part that surprised me though was that they seemed to use one and the same capsule in each of a dozen different clones. I would have thought it would be impossible to get anything approaching the sound of the original mic with a one-size-fits-all capsule. Anyway, I'm commenting without having heard any of these mics even once, so for all I know they might be pretty good...

-synthoid

...as Michael would confirm, you'd be surprised how many of the Chinese mics use essentially the same capsule design (K67)...aside from that there is a fairly large range within that same design in terms of quality...797audio has historically been one of the more consistant...they evolved from the original Chinese microphone factory that was initially trained by german engineers in the early 50's...

[memphisindie]

Yesterday I got an email from a solar deployment co. that stated " Solar cells manufactured in china with unpure silicon fail and US companies using solar no longer purchase them on price.
The Chinese companies admitted to selling product (created by slaves) in the US at a price no US manufacturer could touch in order to take over the market."
The "OLD" ways.
They do the exact same thing Walmart does. DESTROY all competition in any market, then, they destroy the manufacturers when they have made the products worthless.
WHY?
The Chinese lack guidance and experience.
That's why we have to make mics there, and I mean we HAVE TO stay in the game to keep them and WallyWorld from destroying everything.

Wally World is just greedy and misguided., or, are they?
Economy bubble allowed for a population boom years ago, along with other historical events, such as, suffrage (added 3x the amount of workers), equal rights (added 3x to the upper management), both without takers for 3x the products so now everyone had to take 1/3 the money. That caused price consciousness which was exploited in advertising as a good thing and production to meet it employed many at a reduced pay, but, not reduced in numbers, just the value of the dollar. There wasn't enough money, credit was needed, gold standard had to be dropped to make more money, a more equitable way to divide renumeration into smaller parts without the appearance.
It was going to happen one way or another, but, we could have done it more responsibly. China, Nixon, etc.
It's symptomatic of humans, they want stuff, they get jealous when they don't have stuff others do have.
On our deathbeds the only thing that will matter to us (if we have a conscience) is if we made the world a better place by our presence, that includes China.
Mike makes Mics and recordings better. He uses China to accomplish that. Maybe he will someday need to do the same in his country, maybe he can do both now, I think that's his plan, I like Mike.

[Michael_Joly]

Originally Posted by xfreddex

...
The equipment was;... Rode NTK (vocals, room) and cheap Superlux scd's (OH's)...

Please let me know if you get a chance to do something like this in the future (this goes for other China-based engineers as well) - I'd like to sponsor a project with a full set of Michael Joly Editions mics after they become available in early 2010.

[tapehiss]

Originally Posted by memphisindie

WHY?
The Chinese lack guidance and experience.
That's why we have to make mics there, and I mean we HAVE TO stay in the game to keep them and WallyWorld from destroying everything..

the lower half of your post was interesting.....


although its obvious there is a growing collaboration between east and west....

you can see it in medicine, psychology, and microphones!!!

[Michael_Joly]

Well, they didn't get their MagLev train technology from America.

[tapehiss]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Well, they didn't get their MagLev train technology from America.

thats true......

the east is very technology savvy!!!!!!!!

japan developed the first light-rail that hovers over the track from a genius magnetics design......
i know this from a friend who is currently working on the billions dollar light-rail being developed to travel through all seattle, both above and below ground.

[chickencoop]

Wow-- very cool Michael! Congratulations!

[Michael_Joly]

Hey Chick, is this your first post in this thread? Good to see you here! and thanks!

[mingustoo]

"...eastern communities were established long before the united states
and it wasn't until america set the example of capitalism that china began to "be guided" by the west..... they are experiencing an economic boom, similar to what america experienced in the past.........."

....Oh, so America invented capitalism (buying and selling)? That's nice to know. Did America also invent gravity? What about sunlight?
..some veeerrrrryyy interesting reading in this thread. China's leaders are being "guided" by the West much like cars on the freeway are 'guided' to slow down when they see a car up ahead lose control and run into the ditch.

...I think I'll go do some and dream about some new MJ Edition mics

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

Well, they didn't get their MagLev train technology from America.

Bell Labs, low temp ceramic superconducting magnetics.
I thought they had developed those in Jersey.
I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by mingustoo

"...eastern communities were established long before the united states
and it wasn't until america set the example of capitalism that china began to "be guided" by the west..... they are experiencing an economic boom, similar to what america experienced in the past.........."

....Oh, so America invented capitalism (buying and selling)?

No.

That's nice to know. Did America also invent gravity?

Yes.

What about sunlight?

No, invented in Egypt by Horus the elder, Hercules, etc.

..some veeerrrrryyy interesting reading in this thread. China's leaders are being "guided" by the West much like cars on the freeway are 'guided' to slow down when they see a car up ahead lose control and run into the ditch.

Exactly. So is the US and every other country, except Iran, who thinks they don't need mics.

...I think I'll go do some and dream about some new MJ Edition mics

Me too.

[Matti]

Gravity was "invented" in the UK as you can remember

Matti

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Ron Wheeler

We (Americans and Europeans) are the most stupid people on earth. We send our technology to China for free! Yes for free! Then we lost and still lose our jobs. We (the US) took lots of money from China on credit to pay "their" goods made by Chinese jobs. It's all out of balance. We're far off from a sound 50/50 business.

I refuse to buy any Chinese mic. Not only because of all this also because they are crap compared to "real" Neumann's or any boutique manufacturer like e.g. Royer. They used to produce bad stuff and produce now partially mediocre mics.

People like "finalmix" from Gauge sell crap for $89 and claim to have a equal sounding mic to a real U87. That piece of Sh%§ doesn't even have a output transformer. He sells that stuff to ignoramus taxi members. Duh!

Why are we doin' this? Greed without conscience. Not thinkin' about US/EU jobs for filthy lucre. Congratulations!

We all should really start to think. A mic keeps for a lifetime if we take care.
It's better to spend decent money on great sounding mics made in the US or EU like Brauner or Royer...

Maybe then John Doe gets his job back, can pay his mortgage, feed his kids, get decent health care and can grow old with a 401(k).



Sorry for being so sarcastic but it's the plain truth I do not support.

Originally Posted by DanDan

China copies other peoples designs. This is Theft.
Western companies who participate in this are guilty of theft by association.
Other Western companies who avail of cheap, unionless, rightless, labour, in order to increase profits are guilty of theft also.
They are stealing livelyhoods from their own neighbours.
The long term consequences of this are global, vast, and scary. China pretty much owns the USA already. Who is going to design new technology?
There are great mics designed and made by free humans. e.g. MBHO. Brauner. Other suggestions welcome. Support them, they are the future.
DD

Ignorance abounds.

Microphone technology is not "ours" in the sense of America's.

The condenser designs copied by everyone - Chinese, Americans, Australians, Latvians, you name it, were developed in Germany and Austria will over 50 years ago, in some cases 75 years, and have been in the public domain a long time. That means that anyone is free to use them. Ditto for the ribbon designs developed in the USA by RCA and others.

There is no question of anybody stealing anybody's technology.

Yes, we are losing jobs to China - I submit that this is primarily due to the hyperinflationary policies of the Republican Party that have made it impractical to do anything less than custom shop level work in the USA - and have made custom shop level work here vastly overpriced.

You mention David Royer as one of your heroes of American manufacturing. In case you're not aware of it, Mr. Royer uses Chinese components in his Mohave line of microphones.

I suggest that perhaps you should try manufacturing condenser microphones by yourself, using American labor and materials and without relying on the time tested designs developed by Neumann and AKG before 1960. Then you can talk.

Apologies to anyone I might have offended. I'm sorry, I'm old and grumpy and unfortunately know my history of audio technology.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by DanDan

Copying is theft. Availing of artificially cheap labour is akin to slavery. If you think this analogy is far fetched, please consider Nike's factories in Burma.
DD

Copying public domain designs is not theft. That's why patents have expiration dates.

Are you implying that Nike is stealing their own designs? Or simply implying that they should produce their products in a location where labor costs would cause a 10 times increase in retail price? $1000 gym shoes, anyone?

Or perhaps you're saying that we should abolish the minimum wage so industry will come back to the USA? Good - I suggest you set an example by working for $1.00/hour.

Originally Posted by Marik

Michael,

It is my understanding you will be using a copy of the K47 in your mics. May I ask if the company you are buying it from pays license to Neumann? Or did the company at least asked Neumann for the permission to manufacture it?

Or does the company, which makes a Royer ribbon copy pays David? Or how to explain that Behringer B5 looked suspiciously close to the SP C4, Brent designed himself? Should I continue?

It is not a generalization (which BTW, I hate myself), but just facts.

Best, M

Um, the Neumann patents expired a long time ago.

David Royer's designs are themselves based on ribbon microphones produced by the Swedish company B&O in the late '50s/early '60s.

At the present time nearly all common microphone designs are based on old designs on which the patents have lapsed.

Behringer makes many of their products look like those of other companies. In the case of mics it might be trademark infringement, but not likely patent infringement. Paint the mic a different color and there you go. This isn't the same thing as B's policy of copying the circuit design of electronic products still under patent protection, for which they may very well be liable.

Originally Posted by Tomer1

Here is a scenario,
A head designer leaves a major company after he fails to be promoted to a managment possition or just retaiers.
Some time later The designer wonders into an expo and meets people with money.
They found out about his history and bing,light bulb lights above their heads.
He gets paid tons of money ,gets a nice job title and bring the information he has collected offer the years with him.
Since he now work and live in a company which doesnt follow international pattent laws they can sell what ever they want.
Years later he retaiers and the company decides to sell her(!) designs to other manufacturers in the country and this way knowhow becomes "unpattented"

So do I have a future as a story teller?

Not as a very good one.

That isn't how technology becomes "unpattented" (sic).

Patents have built-in expiration dates, set by legal statute. This period is usually 20 years, depending on jurisdiction. After that time it may or may not be possible to get an extension based on improvements to the technology. Again, this varies by jurisdiction.

After the patent expires anybody is free to use the technology.

If you want to learn something more than heresay about patents, here is a link:

Patent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Companies that wish to avoid the eventual public domain status of their technology often do NOT file patents, but seek to protect it by "trade secret" contracts with employees. A good example would be the formula of Coca-Cola. This does not work well with mechanical devices such as microphones that can be easliy reverse-engineered and is seldom used for such things a basic microphone designs. It may have some limited application in diaphragm formulations, metallurgy, etc.

Trade secret - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[tapehiss]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

Ignorance abounds.

Microphone technology is not "ours" in the sense of America's.

You mention David Royer as one of your heroes of American manufacturing. In case you're not aware of it, Mr. Royer uses Chinese components in his Mohave line of microphones.

I suggest that perhaps you should try manufacturing condenser microphones by yourself, using American labor and materials and without relying on the time tested designs developed by Neumann and AKG before 1960. Then you can talk.

Apologies to anyone I might have offended. I'm sorry, I'm old and grumpy and unfortunately know my history of audio technology.

you speak the truth john!!!!!!!! preach it brotha!!!!!!!!!!

[mljung]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

David Royer's designs are themselves based on ribbon microphones produced by the Swedish company B&O in the late '50s/early '60s.

I just wanted to make a tiny correction:
B&O is a Danish company, which by the way still exists, making crazy expensive flat-panel TVs, possibly with a lot of Chinese and other out-sourced parts in it.

::
Mads

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

Ignorance abounds.
There is no question of anybody stealing anybody's technology.

Yes, we are losing jobs to China - I submit that this is primarily due to the hyperinflationary policies of the Republican Party that have made it impractical to do anything less than custom shop level work in the USA - and have made custom shop level work here vastly overpriced.

Nope, China ignored trade laws and exploited partnership laws, and glutted our market with cheap products made by people who aaaaalmost worked for free, some did, the prisoners, and sold them for prices American companies could never touch, ON PURPOSE to dominate and destroy our markets. It's called economic warfare and we've been at it since Vietnam. Lost the ground war, started the economic war. They don't just do it to America, we just had the most to lose and we lost it.

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

Are you implying that Nike is stealing their own designs? Or simply implying that they should produce their products in a location where labor costs would cause a 10 times increase in retail price? $1000 gym shoes, anyone?

Or perhaps you're saying that we should abolish the minimum wage so industry will come back to the USA? Good - I suggest you set an example by working for $1.00/hour.

Good point, but, Nike was being infringed upon by chinese manufacturers and their products were being sold out of car trunks and sidewalk sales till Sho Store owners started buying and selling Chinese Nikes, then, Nike went to China to shut them down and in a brilliant move to benefit both countries, chose to use those factories to make their shoes and trained them and made an investment. They are the prototype for what's happening in sino/american business now. Partnership. And if you want to make money, that's what you have to do. You can't beat them.
It doesn't sound too bad to let countries do what they are set up to do best and most economically, BUT, there will be ramifications for changes in any business with changes this big.

American companies and workers are only experiencing the short term problems right now.
Some are experiencing the short term gains.

I don't think anyone involved has thought about the long term ramifications of this big change either.

Behringer makes many of their products look like those of other companies. In the case of mics it might be trademark infringement, but not likely patent infringement. Paint the mic a different color and there you go. This isn't the same thing as B's policy of copying the circuit design of electronic products still under patent protection, for which they may very well be liable.

Companies that wish to avoid the eventual public domain status of their technology often do NOT file patents, but seek to protect it by "trade secret" contracts with employees. A good example would be the formula of Coca-Cola.
Trade secret - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The "trade secret" of cocacola was put in place to protect the ingredients from being disclosed, because they became illegal, yet, they still used it and because Coca Cola was use to give slaves and cotton pickers extra energy to pick cotton all day long in the hot sun, it used to make your tongue numb.
The secret ingredient was and still is :
COCAINE.
They only use the flavor of it now. What happens to the rest of it?

[big country]

if MJE wants to sell off his technology and stuff hes learned modifying Russian mics thats his decision,
whats mine is mine and whats yours is yours .

patents are laws, sometimes law doesn't always use common sense
in reality I think the condenser Mic designs is owned by the original
designer. sometimes with business, people are put in situations to sell
things they wouldn't normally sell . patents could be an extension of that

"I'm building a house" and never building it ,yet "having a house built" would be the correct phrase
stuff they dont teach in college English courses
BTW ain't is word


the ol saying well if they dont agree he can find work some where else
sometimes its best to be somewhere else ?or make your own work somewhere Else


just because I'm a US citizen doesn't mean that all designs made in the USA are mine ,
although I do feel they are part of my history only
because if any thing my roots as a American go pretty deep .

BTW I'm quite sure Indians weren't perfectly Innocent but probably
didn't get a fair shake

anyhow I kinda think MJE is being used , of course hes being used
just how and is it fair . Is it just for sales, in return MJE is also
using, it seems too be a Using partner ship . its not easy doing things
all on your own ( possible but not easy )

honestly when I weigh it all in the chines arent stupid they can
build there own mics they know he can sell stuff not only stuff
but stuff to America . China seems have taken on this business
thing like 18 year old buck looking down at a herd of buckees
instead of taking on a buck or two there going for broke




to MR. MJE I was once told by someone who's business I didn't agree with but deeply admired
to never put your eggs in one basket .
I like eggs and will tell you not to take your advice from analogies

dont be a business mans collection

[Michael_Joly]

While being an "arm-chair quarterback" is a great position from which to view the field, the biggest problem is that one never get to learn by throwing the ball and accepting the consequences.

This is why I've tried to be very concrete and specific in this thread and talk about my experiences on the ground in China - what I personally observed, felt and did; I've stayed away from extrapolating some grand scheme about "China" or "the Chinese" or "Chinese business practices" from my very narrow experiences.

I'll repeat something I said earlier that may have gotten overlooked - I do not have a simple vendor / buyer relationship with the company I'm working with. We have a unique partnership that recognizes strengths in the other, and when these are brought together mutual benefits for each side can be realized.

While I have one of the East Coast's best intellectual property lawyers on my team, I do not need to rely on him in order to have absolutely zero fear of my Chinese partners taking my IP and running away with it without me.

I have zero fear for several reasons - the first and most important is trust. I have taken a long time to get to know my partners as humans beings with families, responsibilities, personal likes and dislikes, taste in music...getting to know them as brother rather than other as I'm fond of saying. To this point - I'm sure other Westerners who've worked in China could echo this - but after one is in China for a while, the language stops sounding like Cantonese (in Guangzhou say) or Mandarin (in the North). The spoken language begins to sound like "people talking" - even though the words cannot be understood. Similarly, after being in China for a while, one stops seeing every face on the street as being "Chinese" and begins to see the infinite variety of facial features that make up just one aspect of a unique individual.

So when one reaches a point in a relationship where one does not see the business associate as "other" - but rather as brother, a whole new level of business relationship presents itself.

Second, I have zero fear of loss because my partners recognize their future gains are tied to my personal brand and the goodwill people have graciously extended to me. We are going to sell branded microphone products worldwide from a solid foundation of a personal boutique brand known for high performance, affordable prices and a personal customer experience. They do not possess this equity, I do.

My partners and I have found each other in this "complicated and diverse new world" as NPR's "Tell me more" host Michelle Martin says. We are working slowly and deliberately to make complicated issues understandable between us, and strive to respect the diversity of our separate experiences - all while making microphones that will hopefully provide jobs for the people involved with their design, manufacture, distribution, sales, support - and finally, a rewarding experience for those folks who use them. I'd like to think this is a small contribution toward making the world a better place.

[ianbryn11]

Originally Posted by Michael_Joly

My partners and I have found each other in this "complicated and diverse new world" as NPR's "Tell me more" host Michelle Martin says. We are working slowly and deliberately to make complicated issues understandable between us, and strive to respect the diversity of our separate experiences - all while making microphones that will hopefully provide jobs for the people involved with their design, manufacture, distribution, sales, support - and finally, a rewarding experience for those folks who use them. I'd like to think this is a small contribution toward making the world a better place.

I think this is a very good point. China is not going anywhere. We can either alienate ourselves more and more from them, and cut ties untill all ties are broken, or we can learn to coexist. That means using each others unique talents and resources. If every US company cut ties with China, or any other country for that matter, that would just create more separation between what really is a global market, and a single species.. HUMAN BEINGS..

There is all sorts of political mumbo jumbo being spewed on TV and news, and a lot of it fails to take into account that this is a changing world, and in order for The human race to survive and thrive, we need to work together. China needs us, just like we need China... ANd the bottom line in my opinion, is that the more we alienate ourselves form our fellow man, the more damage we do to our world...

[big country]

I dont like football , something about a group of people willing to do what ever at what ever cost to get a ball from AtoB scars me a little

I actually had a recliner for a month or two they are very nice .
that recliner was in a Mic shop I was trying to build
I had a little over 5 grand thats rent and every thing to start a
Mic business , I lived in that shop .
you say lawyers well that scares me , your dealing with people
who want money for your work , trust me they a can be very annoying
and do nothing for an actual trade so that gives them plenty of time
to be annoying .

when I buy a product I want to know all else fails if this
banking system goes wrong I can repay the stuff I bought
with goods or service
now someone goes to china for a business relationship better
know the ins and outs of how trade works and not put their
customers in jeopardy

[MadGuitrst]

First off Michael, good luck with the new venture(s).

Where can I get an application for one of the new jobs, say as Chief Tech?

As for designs, stealing them, etc. I can only say this:
A couple of years back I was in discussions with various Chinese companies about purchasing mics and other products, etc. I got to the point of discussing mics being made to certain specs, etc.

Anyway, in one case, with one particular mic that was relatively new in our market and was different than their typical offerings, they would NOT sell me THAT mic due to an agreement with the company buying them. They would sell me something that looked like it but it would have had to be different internally.

BTW, I think Studio Projects has sold the best completely Chinese made mics yet. I haven't seen any of their mics re-badged .

[memphisindie]

Mike,

I only have one question:

Have you found a way to create jobs in this country while you are creating jobs in theirs?

It can be done, it may take time, Nike did it.


I think that's the real question though.
I think One hand should wash the other. Washing hands with only one hand doesn't work well. If you do this, The president will want to hear about it.

Maybe "Mic-eez"?

[Old Goat]

Originally Posted by memphisindie

Mike,

I only have one question:

Have you found a way to create jobs in this country while you are creating jobs in theirs?

I believe he said in an earlier post the there was a good chance of adding a few jobs stateside as this project went on.

[tapehiss]

Originally Posted by memphisindie

Mike,

I only have one question:

Have you found a way to create jobs in this country while you are creating jobs in theirs?

It can be done, it may take time, Nike did it.

craziness!!!!!!!!!!!!! (and this shocks me that your involving yourself in the MJE business model)

your comparing nike to a mic manufacturer man!!!!!!



that's like asking a "mom and pop shop" to offer as the same business plan as wallmart.

and also, as said above, MJE is hiring in more than one country

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by tapehiss

craziness!!!!!!!!!!!!! (and this shocks me that your involving yourself in the MJE business model)

your comparing nike to a mic manufacturer man!!!!!!

that's like asking a "mom and pop shop" to offer as the same business plan as wallmart.

and also, as said above, MJE is hiring in more than one country

Try not to spaz too soon, man, That was the point of my post, so Mike could reiterate that very fact himself.

I think he's doing great.

Originally Posted by Old Goat

I believe he said in an earlier post the there was a good chance of adding a few jobs stateside as this project went on.

Exactly, he's doing it, more power to him.

[tapehiss]

Originally Posted by memphisindie

Try not to spaz too soon, man,

oh, ok....

i'll try, then i'll wash my hands..... see if that works...




woooopsss!!! sorry, i'm done participating in this thread,,, all i can say here has been said!!!!!!!!!

[Michael_Joly]

Originally Posted by memphisindie

Mike,

I only have one question:

Have you found a way to create jobs in this country while you are creating jobs in theirs?

It can be done, it may take time, Nike did it.


I think that's the real question though.
I think One hand should wash the other. Washing hands with only one hand doesn't work well. If you do this, The president will want to hear about it.

Maybe "Mic-eez"?

yeah, that's the goal. I can see needing two local people by next Summer. Probably "mother's hours" / job share situation that would give a couple of people a part time income and allow them to care for their families. One step at a time.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by DanDan

Michael, I suggest that it is your post that should have been directed elsewhere. Perhaps it should have been a paid advert?
China's abuses are currently happening, not some history.
I believe my contributions are completely relevant now. Unemployment is rife. A lot of it is due to outsourcing. I firmly believe it is unsustainable and destructive to outsource to such unimaginable distances, to a totally different culture, with artificial pricing. Ultimately the real interest in China here is that it is a cheap source of a cheap product. Let's not try to disguise that with talk of history or 'worldviews'.
DD

Hey, man, you're not even FROM the USA! Maybe you should keep the jingoistic nonsense to yourself, we have enough of that stuff home grown, thank-you-very-much!

And as I recall, Ireland was one of the first countries to greatly benefit from American outsourcing of tech - a lot of our hard drive manufacturing and a lot of other stuff went to your country. You don't appear to be complaining about that!

You wanna complain about outsourcing to China, try starting with AKG - they'll laugh in your face!

Apologies to everybody else, this guy is getting me really PO'ed.......

Originally Posted by soulata

Russia uses force as well and we're still buying Oktavas, come think of it, USA uses force and we're still...

Again, not much of an argument.

k

Show me a government that doesn't use force and I'll show you a government thaqt won't be around very long.