Rock ´n´Roll quality rising?

[Friedemann]

Hi!

So I got the new Them Crooked Vultures and Biffy Clyro albums for birthday and I´m now sitting here and enjoying. After listening to them a few times I get the impression, that the technical quality in modern rock´n´roll music is constantly rising since say 2004.
All the CDs I got in the last few years were all made with very high production standards. The only downside is this annoying loudness thingy which doesn´t seem to go away...
But overall it´s is a very nice development I think!

Just wanted to share this thought.

Greetz Friedemann

[adeptusmajor]

i sure hope so...


TCV is definitely a breath of fresh air, in my opinion



EDIT: oh, and i am referring to the quality of the music more than the production quality

[James Lugo]

Halestorm on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos

\M/

[Friedemann]

Definitely not my music, but sounds good for myspace.

[Jax]

I'm happier that Rock music seems to be getting better more than I am about the quality of how it's recorded. Even the local scene in the Bay Area has a bunch of great bands right now, a few of whom my band shared live gigs with recently. They were kick ass shows!

[Friedemann]

Originally Posted by Jax

I'm happier that Rock music seems to be getting better more than I am about the quality of how it's recorded. Even the local scene in the Bay Area has a bunch of great bands right now, a few of whom my band shared live gigs with recently. They were kick ass shows!

I personally didn´t feel that rock lost its musical quality lately. So I don´t think it´s rising nowadays, but I see your point

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by adeptusmajor

i sure hope so...


TCV is definitely a breath of fresh air, in my opinion



EDIT: oh, and i am referring to the quality of the music more than the production quality

I just checked out a couple songs on my Rhap subscription. I'd go with the musical breath-o-fresh air angle sooner than anything else, too.

Still, I'd say it's more a breath of fresh air within the narrow confines of retro/retread rock. I mean, it's definitely a nice change from some of the stuff that passes for modern rock/metal... sounds like it was pretty much created by real humans with a minimal intrusion of cookie cutter methodologies. And I'd have to give it a C+ on sonics, and that maybe only because I kinda enjoyed the musical approach. The second song I listened to, "Mind Eraser," sounded pretty bad, sonically, some nasty compression breathing and such.

[kats]

Originally Posted by Friedemann

Hi!

So I got the new Them Crooked Vultures and Biffy Clyro albums for birthday and I´m now sitting here and enjoying. After listening to them a few times I get the impression, that the technical quality in modern rock´n´roll music is constantly rising since say 2004.

Rising? Depends how you look at it. TCV was recorded to 2" 8 track 7 1/2 IPS. The new Raconteurs album was done to 2" 16 track @30ips

Both are stellar productions - head and shoulders above the fray. Live off the floor, no click tracks, lots of bleed.

Here's a great seminar that talks about them:

Video: Anatomy of a Hit: The Raconteurs and Kings of Leon




And while on the subject, here's a pic of my last session with some info:

Live off the floor, no headphones, all monitoring through the floor monitors (scratch vox, & keys). Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to take the pics before some of the stuff was removed but there was a second guitar amp (an 18 watt) "gobo'd off in front of the bass rig facing across the "stage". There was also some kind of electronic keyboard DI'd to the tape deck but also on an aux sent back out to the monitors. It was righteous and loud, the band rocked!

9 tracks to tape total for the beds. The only OD's were vocals and guitar solo which topped us out at 23 tracks. I could have easily brought it under 16, but I was wasting tracks since they were available (hahaha what a big shot I am with my 24 tracks!).

The most fun about the whole thing was watching how much fun the band had. From a sound perspective, the great thing was that there was no guessing on what kind of bass/drum/guitar sound would jive together as the players tweaked as they played as opposed to tweaking an isolated sound. For the most part it translated through to the recording.

Nothing new here obviously, but this kind of work is always a buzz!

[Friedemann]

Originally Posted by kats

Rising? Depends how you look at it. TCV was recorded to 2" 8 track 7 1/2 IPS. The new Raconteurs album was done to 2" 16 track @30ips

When I said the quality is rising I didn´t mean to imply, that this is caused by new technology!

[Subversounds]

I really like The Zutons production (and music for sure!).

But things like Artic Monkeys or The Hives, i think its way too compressed, good but can easily fatigue my ears...

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by theblue1

I just checked out a couple songs on my Rhap subscription. I'd go with the musical breath-o-fresh air angle sooner than anything else, too.

Still, I'd say it's more a breath of fresh air within the narrow confines of retro/retread rock. I mean, it's definitely a nice change from some of the stuff that passes for modern rock/metal... sounds like it was pretty much created by real humans with a minimal intrusion of cookie cutter methodologies. And I'd have to give it a C+ on sonics, and that maybe only because I kinda enjoyed the musical approach. The second song I listened to, "Mind Eraser," sounded pretty bad, sonically, some nasty compression breathing and such.

Originally Posted by kats

Rising? Depends how you look at it. TCV was recorded to 2" 8 track 7 1/2 IPS. The new Raconteurs album was done to 2" 16 track @30ips

Both are stellar productions - head and shoulders above the fray. Live off the floor, no click tracks, lots of bleed.

[...]

There ya go. For me, a partial explanation for my observations on my perceptions of the sonic quality (7.5 ips) with re TCV -- and further evidence that no individual two ear/mind systems hear the same thing the same way.




PS... here's something kinda pathetic: I just googled "tape head bump at 7.5 ips" and almost every return was from a write-up or discussion of some sort of tape sim product. I don't know why that bugs me out so much, but, damn, folks if you want a big nasty frequency response bulge at the bottom end, get yourselves a real tape machine. Or an EQ.

[Friedemann]

which is a good thing. Everything else would be soo boring!

[kats]

Originally Posted by Friedemann

which is a good thing. Everything else would be soo boring!

It also keeps people with lousy taste employed!

Originally Posted by theblue1

a partial explanation for my observations on my perceptions of the sonic quality (7.5 ips)

PS... here's something kinda pathetic: I just googled "tape head bump at 7.5 ips" and almost every return was from a write-up or discussion of some sort of tape sim product. I don't know why that bugs me out so much, but, damn, folks if you want a big nasty frequency response bulge at the bottom end, get yourselves a real tape machine. Or an EQ.

You understand that it was 2 INCH 8 track right?

[Friedemann]

oh....gotta go...

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by kats

It also keeps people with lousy taste employed!



You understand that it was 2 INCH 8 track right?

Sure, you'll get lots of bass at 7.5 ips on a good 2" machine and some relief from noise (vis a vis 7.5 ips on a 1" machine). You won't get a lot of HF response and that manifests on the songs I've heard from the TCV album. (Grabbing specs I have handy, a Studer a827 in factory shape should get up to about 15 kHz +/- 2 dB. And, with an 8 or 16 track configuration, you'll get a S/N ratio at 7.5 ips of ~60 dB. Sixty.)

I'm listening to "Caligulove" right now. Sounds very dull. And I'm no fan of over-bright modern mixes. In the slightest.

Don't get me wrong, I'm overall enjoying the retro approach -- but I'd be straight up lying if I said I thought the recording (as opposed to the music/arangement) sounded good.

Don't get me wrong, the diminished sonics don't stand in the way of me enjoying this -- I listen to loads of music recorded from the 20s through the 60s and plenty (but not necessarily all) of it is greatly impacted by recording quality issues. That stuff just doesn't get in the way of my enjoying great music, pretty much.

But my enjoyment of that music does not distort my thinking into the notion that those impacted recordings sound good, fidelity-wise.

[kats]

I still don't think you get it.

Two Inch Eight Track.

Not

Two Inch 24 Track

Not

Two Inch 16 track

But

Two Inch Eight Track

Oh and PS regarding your "diminished sonics". After the program was dumped to PT all involved noticed a huge drop in fidelity, so they canned the PT idea. And PS check out who did the recordings if you have the nerve to think you know better.

[theblue1]

Gee, I think I get it pretty good.

I was likely still editing my post above when you wrote this, so I'll repeat the specs I added to it:

An up-to-spec Studer A827 (with an 8 track head) at 7.5 ips will get 30-15kHz +/- 2 dB. 30-12 dB +/- 1dB. That's a pretty good machine. Cost a lot of bank when it was new.

On the noise front, things are also not rosy at 7.5 ips, pulling down an unweighted S/N of 60 dB, CCIR or AES. (NAB it goes up to 68 dB unweighted.)

Those are straight out of Studer's published specs. (If it makes you feel any better, for some reason, according to Studer's specs, the S/N ratio actually drops a dB by moving up to 15 ips. But move up to 30 ips and you get an extra 3 dB over 7.5 ips. But moving up to 30 ips gives you a significant 1/3 octave treble extension up to 20 kHz (+/- 2 dB). Unfortunately, you start losing low end. The low end of the +/- 2dB figure moves all the way up to 50 Hz at 30 ips.


Hey, but that's all numbers. And I think you're an ear guy, right?

Well, my ears tell me that the tracks I've listened to are not what I would call close to hi fi. YMMV.

[Hell, I'd go farther. I don't even think the tracks I've heard sound like they exploit the fidelity possible on an up-to-spec machine like the A827 I listed specs for. By a ways. But it's still pretty enjoyable, nonetheless.]

[robertshaw]

Originally Posted by Friedemann

Hi!

So I got the new Them Crooked Vultures and Biffy Clyro albums for birthday and I´m now sitting here and enjoying. After listening to them a few times I get the impression, that the technical quality in modern rock´n´roll music is constantly rising since say 2004.
All the CDs I got in the last few years were all made with very high production standards. The only downside is this annoying loudness thingy which doesn´t seem to go away...
But overall it´s is a very nice development I think!

Just wanted to share this thought.

Greetz Friedemann

Crooked Vultures are cool. Kinda like Iron Butterfly meets Deep Purple and NIN

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by robertshaw

Crooked Vultures are cool. Kinda like Iron Butterfly meets Deep Purple and NIN

Not at all sure I'm hearing the NIN.

(Maybe in the thankfully not-as-retro vocal styling?) And, actually, unless they sneak some keyboards into the songs I haven't heard, I'd have to take exception to those examples. There are a lot of other bands I'd probably liken TCV to sooner. TCV remind me more of bits of Zep and Aerosmith, as well as others in the hard rock axis, more than the 70s keyboard metal thing.

[kats]

Funny how Studer would publish specs for an after market format designed by JRF magnetics...

Can you link the source because it sounds suspiciously disingenuous.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by kats

Funny how Studer would publish specs for an after market format designed by JRF magnetics...

Can you link the source because it sounds suspiciously disingenuous.

Nothing I like better than being called a liar...

ftp://ftp.studer.ch/Public/Products/...MCH/Brochures/

EDIT: I had originally linked to the tech info folder. My bad. The folder above is now the correct one but Here's the direct link to the specs:
ftp://ftp.studer.ch/Public/Products/..._OrderInfo.pdf



Funny thing, kats, you and I have been through much of this all before but apparently your recall capacity is limited in some fashion.

[kats]

First off, these measurements are at +6/185 using Quantegy 456. I am going to assume these are not of 8 track headstacks either, but rather just the noise of 8 tracks playing back together through the machine. Why?

Because who the **** would record 8 track 2" at +6/185???? That shit is rated 24X2" +6/185 at 30ips. Do the math and see how hot you can hit 2" 8 track. (And don''t forget the spaces like the last time you acted like you knew what you were talking about).

Now imagine if you use modern hi output tape that is rated +9 eh.

Anyhow, please don't feel the need to respond, because I really don't care what you think you know.

[rrraaalllfff]

Currently I'm thoroughly enjoying the album "everyday demons" by The Answer. An Irish rock band. These kids know wtf they're doing. Saw them live too, and it was impeccable.

[robertshaw]

Originally Posted by theblue1

Not at all sure I'm hearing the NIN.

(Maybe in the thankfully not-as-retro vocal styling?) And, actually, unless they sneak some keyboards into the songs I haven't heard, I'd have to take exception to those examples. There are a lot of other bands I'd probably liken TCV to sooner. TCV remind me more of bits of Zep and Aerosmith, as well as others in the hard rock axis, more than the 70s keyboard metal thing.

sort of an industrial dark thing going on at times
Asmith? Zep? now that's just disrespectful

[rrraaalllfff]

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

Halestorm on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos

\M/

holy crap... just heard "takes my life" (live)... this girl is crazy (good). If she doesn't blow out her throat, she has a bright future. Thanks for sharing this... \M/

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by kats

First off, these measurements are at +6/185 using Quantegy 456. I am going to assume these are not of 8 track headstacks either, but rather just the noise of 8 tracks playing back together through the machine. Why?

Because who the **** would record 8 track 2" at +6/185???? That shit is rated 24X2" +6/185 at 30ips. Do the math and see how hot you can hit 2" 8 track. (And don''t forget the spaces like the last time you acted like you knew what you were talking about).

Now imagine if you use modern hi output tape that is rated +9 eh.

Anyhow, please don't feel the need to respond, because I really don't care what you think you know.

If you don't like how Studer specs their machines, I strongly suggest you take it up with them.

But the fact remains that you suggested I was being dishonest about the specs I quoted and I proved that I was not.

You owe me an apology.

Seriously.


PS... It totally cracks me up that you are now wondering aloud if the specs posted were even pertinent to an A827 with an 8 track stack. It says it right in the specs. Gosh darn, you are really beginning to try my patience.

[kats]

Originally Posted by theblue1

If you don't like how Studer specs their machines, I strongly suggest you take it up with them.

But the fact remains that you suggested I was being dishonest about the specs I quoted and I proved that I was not.

You owe me an apology.

Seriously.


PS... It totally cracks me up that you are now wondering aloud if the specs posted were even pertinent to an A827 with an 8 track stack. It says it right in the specs. Gosh darn, you are really beginning to try my patience.

GFY.




You presented these specs as the noise floor of of a 2" 8 track head stack used in normal operation - which these Studer specs ARE NOT.

PS, I don't even think Studer made a 8 track head stack for the 827. I've only heard of a couple of 16 track version - the rest lost to the fire at the Studer factory.

JRF came out with them in '97 or so.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by kats

GFY.




You presented these specs as the noise floor of of a 2" 8 track head stack used in normal operation - which these Studer specs ARE NOT.

PS, I don't even think Studer made a 8 track head stack for the 827. I've only heard of a couple of 16 track version - the rest lost to the fire at the Studer factory.

JRF came out with them in '97 or so.

I beg your pardon.

I wrote this:

Originally Posted by theblue1

Sure, you'll get lots of bass at 7.5 ips on a good 2" machine and some relief from noise (vis a vis 7.5 ips on a 1" machine). You won't get a lot of HF response and that manifests on the songs I've heard from the TCV album. (Grabbing specs I have handy, a Studer a827 in factory shape should get up to about 15 kHz +/- 2 dB. And, with an 8 or 16 track configuration, you'll get a S/N ratio at 7.5 ips of ~60 dB. Sixty.)

I'm listening to "Caligulove" right now. Sounds very dull. And I'm no fan of over-bright modern mixes. In the slightest.

Don't get me wrong, I'm overall enjoying the retro approach -- but I'd be straight up lying if I said I thought the recording (as opposed to the music/arangement) sounded good.

Don't get me wrong, the diminished sonics don't stand in the way of me enjoying this -- I listen to loads of music recorded from the 20s through the 60s and plenty (but not necessarily all) of it is greatly impacted by recording quality issues. That stuff just doesn't get in the way of my enjoying great music, pretty much.

But my enjoyment of that music does not distort my thinking into the notion that those impacted recordings sound good, fidelity-wise.

That's what I wrote, my man.

As I noted, I was quoting the product specifications.


EDIT: OK... I see what you are getting at here. You're talking about an aftermarket head stack retrofitted to an A827 -- is that correct?

In which case, we do have an actual misunderstanding -- and since it's my unfamiliarity with the original machine that delayed my figuring out what you were talking about, I'll be happy to apologize for any confusion my quoting of the Studer specs caused.

With that understanding in place, this dust up takes on a new light and I can see that you probably did think I was trying to pull a fast one.

My bad for not getting what you were saying about the retrofit head stack.

[kats]

You forget to mention that you edited your original post (I believe twice now) after I made mine.

So yeah GFY again. You have no clue what your talking about, and have no experience in what your talking about.

[kats]

Oh Gawd, you edited your posts again...

Please stop.