Your Piano Method?

[PinnacleProdUK]

For most of us, ever owning or having the chance to use and record whenever we want, a top of the range Steinway D or Yamaha C7 Grand Piano is far from a reality.

Even having the perfect room to house the piano and get the best sound out of it not to mention the need to keep it maintained is not an easy feat.

Do you slutz think that having a great master keyboard say Roland RD700GX with a sustain pedal, coupled with a Piano library like Vienna/Ivory or EW and Altiverb can sound just as authentic if not better than as using a real Steinway?

Some of these libraries have been recorded in world class rooms with high end equipment, some of which would be hard to do for a lot of people.

Do you dislike Piano VST's, if so why?

Do you feel they lack something and could you get a better sound in your studio with a C7 mic'ed up with a couple of C414's and maybe a U47, I'm not doubting for any minute that you could but do you not like the immediateness of using a VST like EW?

What is everybody's situation when it comes down to using a piano and why?

Thanks in advance!

[redvelvetstudios]

a real piano sounds like a real piano, a sampled piano sounds like a sampled piano.

great results can be had, and many listeners will not hear the difference. I know of several high end pop producers who use Ivory. I've used Akoustic Piano for years which is really long in the tooth about now. I've got the Abby Road Keyboard for Reason - which are OK for character.

but - once you sit down at, and record a real piano - the difference is immediate and profound.

I have a beat up, student upright in my house - probably from the 20s/30s - and man - even out of tune it is a million times more expressive and interesting than any sample library, virtual piano, etc.

I never understand these conversations. The real things sounds like/is the real thing. A copy/emulation is a copy/emulation of the real thing.

I'm not against copies and emulations, etc - I use the UAD LA2A, 1176 etc - I use the Waves GBuss Compressor - but I never think for a second that it sounds or behaves exactly like the real thing.

Life is full of compromises - that's OK. It's the denial that is the bigger problem.

[fhames]

I have a 6'1" Yamaha C3 in a bad room. I usually mic it with a Wunder Audio CM7 GT(M7) and a Telefunken AK 47 through a pair of LA 610's. I put the lid on the big stick and cover it with a blanket to keep the room out. After a fresh tuning, this works to great effect. I have used many sample pianos but nothing is even close to the real thing. The dynamic range alone is vastly greater than any sample.



Bryant - Hames Music

[shanabit]

Cant afford the real deal nor have room for one so SAMPLED VSTi it will be

More than that is nothing FEELS like a piano to me. I bet the golden ears would have a hard time telling the diff anymore though

I think the Yamaha boards have a more "piano feel to me"

As far as piano method, nothing beats Czerny and Hanon

[theque]

can anyone post any examples of sampled piano in some bigger budget productions. i would like to listen and see if i can tell the difference.

cheerios

[vitreouswindows]

Given the current economic situation, you might be able to find a really nice piano that you could rent long-term, or, rent-to-own. There isn't anything that supplants a real piano, but only you can tell if that is a need. For me it is a need, and there are inventive ways to accommodate it. But again, determining what you really feel is important for you to do what you wish to do is paramount.

[piano]

I keep busy with a real 7 foot piano.

L

[desotoslo]

give us real instruments

[billby]

I did exactly that

recently bought the RD700GX - because out of all the digital pianos out there atm, I personally liked the feel \ action of that one the best - and although its Ivory Feel is an improvment, NOTHING beats the feel, sound, experience, perfomrance of the real thing

filled the RD full of every Roland exp card possible (for latency reasons), and although these cards provide a wide variety of samples, I found the stock default AA01 piano - I think its called Expressive Grand - to be the best sounding

I have recorded my old 20\30's upright and even though it sounds old (like those saloon piani's in the picture shows), it sounds more authentic and carries itself with more of a resonance than any sampled piano

if you were a concert pianist or piano was the main instrument in the song, I would not recomend recording with a digital piano or vsti - the differences are neglible in a big mix, but are very noticable when listened for and just downright digtal sounding on their own, no matter how much cool OTB processing I apply...

2nd hand piano prices have always remained fairly constant, upright, out of paper, move it yourself - or get pro's to move it....couple hundred at most, then just get it tuned, doesn't take up much space, you'll have it for life

[Spall]

Originally Posted by PinnacleProdUK

Do you slutz think that having a great master keyboard say Roland RD700GX with a sustain pedal, coupled with a Piano library like Vienna/Ivory or EW and Altiverb can sound just as authentic if not better than as using a real Steinway?

That is a fantastic combination - I use the RD700GX with Ivory Grand Piano.

Yes - to my mind the sampled libraries are incredibly useful and realistic. There will be many who don't agree, but Ivory (and other high end libraries) sound so realistic that placed within a mix you would be hard pressed to tell the difference. Heck, even when you are playing it you really get a sense that you are playing the real deal.

The other benefit to libraries other than convenience is that the sounds are already near ready to go once they are sitting in your session. Especially Ivory and the like where there are so many different pianos and combinations/articulations to choose from. EQ to taste and there you go.

To back this up, a few months ago I used the Steinway piano from GPO (garritan personal orchestra) on a classically-styled score for a TV Commercial. I recorded real strings etc and would have recorded real piano too but this sounded so darn good in there that why change it?! So I ran with it and am glad I did. Because the piano wasn't the only focus of the peice it hardly mattered because it sounded great overall.

But I have also played/recorded piano acoustically in a studio and I preferred this for the style of songs I was recording but really it all depends on taste and importantly - context. You bet your bottom dollar that libraries are used heavily on countless records, ads, soundtracks. But then again, there is no substitute - nor will there ever be - for sitting behind a real piano in a studio. Unbeatable feeling.

[piano]

Here is the deal.

I just find it CHEEZY for a studio to offer a sample set over a REAL piano. In fact, it's really kind of a joke.

There is just no comparison.

And yes it costs big buck for a nice piano and a decent room --- so there you go --- in my opinion.

[junkshop]

Another vote for real pianos. I'll take a beaten upright over samples any day of the week.

[joelpatterson]

Well, yeah, sorta and sorta not-- a real piano is one thing.

Getting a decent recording of a real piano that sounds anyway even halfway as clear and 'chiming' and 'tones hanging in midair and lush and beauteous' as a good electronical keyboard playing a fine sample architecture-- maybe not so automatic as one would wish.

For the human experience, anyone would rather play a real piano, but that doesn't mean the samples wouldn't make for a better recording. If you need another bitter, cruel irony.

[Fletcher]

I've been thinking about selling my piano... if you're interested shoot me a PM with an email address. IMNTLBHO, it sounds 'larger' than a C-7 and will cost you "sales tax" of something like a Steinway D.

Peace.

[sage691]

Like others have stated, real piano is the real deal and drastically different sounding than the best sampled libraries. i have a 6'1" Kawai CA40 concert series grand, and mic'd with a pair of C12As or even km84s it sounds 10X bigger and fatter than the best libraries of 9' Bosendorfers. It's the complex interaction of the tones, especially when sustain pedal is used well, that completely blows away what any library has to offer. Hard to explain, but a real piano will express the personality and nuances of the player and his/her fingers, and then the mics capture that.

My room is not really the greatest (22 long X 16 wide X 13 high --13 ft. wood ceilings & wood floors, lots of 703 & 3 huge bass traps taking out the corners from floor to ceiling, and one corner left untreated)
I get a piano sound in this room that is really quite big and lush, so much better than any sample library I have tried that it's almost laughable.

I think it really ultimately comes down to the PLAYER. A sampled library cannot possibly capture all of the nuances of the way a great player finesses the keys, and that seems to be the major problem IMO. It's the same principle as a great drummer playing on electronic keypads that are triggering samples of real drums recorded in great rooms -- it's still going to sound fake. Actually, I think the piano is even more of a difficult instrument to sample replace than drums.

[joelpatterson]

Feel free to post a clip and all-- but for alot of people, your 'humble' room is the stuff of an opiated dream, I mean if someone lived in a trailer or something.

[spicemix]

I advocate for real things, and have no problem booking one of the better pianos/rooms if need be... But there are very very good sample libs (Art Vista and Bluthner BDMO) and there is the V-piano and when you have someone singing while they play and you'd like isolation so you can fix and tune their vocal part, a fake piano is a godsend and works well enough to keep in an ensemble situation.

Badly recorded real piano is all too common...as opposed to a well-recorded bad piano...and I'd probably rather have samples in that case.

Well recorded well played well tuned great piano in a lovely room is of course unbeatable and you will (and should) pay more for a week of those sessions than you will for purchasing the entire state of the art of fake pianos. Make sure if there's singing along the player can sing first.

[Sky]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

Well, yeah, sorta and sorta not-- a real piano is one thing.

Getting a decent recording of a real piano that sounds anyway even halfway as clear and 'chiming' and 'tones hanging in midair and lush and beauteous' as a good electronical keyboard playing a fine sample architecture-- maybe not so automatic as one would wish.

For the human experience, anyone would rather play a real piano, but that doesn't mean the samples wouldn't make for a better recording. If you need another bitter, cruel irony.

I think you've nailed it Joel. Nothing beats a real grand piano, e.g. Steinway, Baldwin or Yamaha; 6' or larger. But it's pretty hard to get a good recording of a real piano in all but the best rooms. And fuhgettabout writing a new song at 2 AM.

Back in the 70s I was spoiled rotten. At school I had access to probably a dozen Steinway or Baldwin grands in good or better maintenance, mostly in the music school, campus recording studio and surprisingly in many of the dorms. I literally would pick a specific piano to play (at 2 AM) depending on my mood and which instrument I wanted to converse with.

Then I moved to LA, rented a small apartment along with everybody else and suffered serious piano withdrawal. The security guards had to kick me out of the UCLA student union more than once. So I bought a Yamaha CP30B, and later a KX88 + MKS20 + Proformance + various sample libraries but nothing was the same.

Still, I likely will never own a real piano again because my lifestyle will not support it. So perhaps the best word is "bittersweet". I'm reasonably content with a pair of 88-key controllers driving a variety of VIs.

Last year I re-recorded an old song written in 1976, with the goal of recreating the oppressive power of wailing on an open-lid Baldwin in a very small practice room, door closed, recording onto a portable cassette recorder with AGC ON. Again, not quite the same, but here it is:

Waiting For God the Producer

(RD600 controller driving NI Akoustik Piano / Steinway / Showcase with lots of compression and a bump in the mid-range.)


Sky

[Sk106]

Agree with many above. As authentic? No. The real thing and a recorded representation of it, can't even be theoretically compared.

A recording is a sonic photograph of a real world thing, but it is not that same thing. That’s where the maze stops, no matter what you do. A recorded piano (samples or whatever) comes out of loudspeakers, whereas the real thing doesn't; its 'right there' *points*.

A recorded or synthesized equivalence of a real thing can however be very useful for one's aim and purpose. Make it enough unique and one might argue that it is no longer a sonic photograph of a real world equivalence, but a sonic property in its own right … which needs a separate and dedicated playback device to be heard. So, a recorded piano can't be compared, but it can be more relevant to your needs, your presentation, and as such it can sound “better” .. but never more authentic.

I got access to an upright Malmsjö Piano .. that I just hate the sound of . Although it's in decent shape, its too dark, hard and cold. In my presentations, I use sampled or synthesized sources, or combinations of them ... but if I'm to play it live, then I use whatever piano is available. Playing it live is a different presentation of the same piece than a recorded presentation is. The recorded presentation of a piece is not "the original" to me. The original, consists of the composition itself, the message/story/intellectual emotion. Music doesn't exist as hardcore material, music appears, in the moment. A recording of it, is just one version of the composition/presentation.

Many times things are even called "recorded" when they really are not, but rather "generated" or spawned. Playing a piece into the computer from a MIDI keyboard, and using recorded samples of a piano to play it back, is kindof a spawned generation, and not a recording, to me. Not referring to things for what they are, using too much simplification, causes incredible confusion, so I tend to watch that.

[drBill]

I use sample library piano's almost every day, but still, I find it hard to believe you're even asking the question. Have you ever played a real piano? Many haven't, that's why I'm asking.

It's not even close. Real piano all the way.

[Igotsoul4u]

I think a real piano sounds better if its recorded well. I wouldn't call the piano an easy instrument to record so unless you know what you're doing and have the right equipment, it may be less frustrating to use Ivory. I also think people are overestimating their "real" pianos. Players do not want to play crappy pianos and crappy pianos don't sound better then Ivory IMO. Its kind of like a studio saying they have a guitar and amp and you show up to a mexican strat with a warped neck and a crate amp. I personally dig Ivory and for anything not jazz or classical it sounds great and all i need to do is bring up the fader and it sits in the mix very well. I also dig having the midi files and find that a couple passes of midi edits can make a performance feel a lot more natural. Obviously i would take a well recorded piano if the choice was there, but it rarely is and most people can't even afford to get the damn piano tuned.

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by PinnacleProdUK

Do you dislike Piano VST's, if so why?

Do you feel they lack something and could you get a better sound in your studio with a C7 mic'ed up with a couple of C414's and maybe a U47, I'm not doubting for any minute that you could but do you not like the immediateness of using a VST like EW?

What is everybody's situation when it comes down to using a piano and why?

Thanks in advance!

I have a very good Yamaha C3 6.1 foot from a vintage year-good room, as well as Sampletank VST piano emulation.

I track the real piano with two tube mikes (pearlman Tm1 in omni and beez Neez Jade in fig 8) in M/S and the sound is deep and organic and huge. It is like a living breathing being that glows and reverberates-takes up a lot of mix "real estate" and is actually a little dark and muddy or too much low end for complex mix- so it has its strengths but weakness as well.

Recently used Sampletank for a song where we wanted a bright "asian" whispering piano sound to cut in the mix- a thin edgy spooky sound and the C3 was just wrong. the Sampletank worked great for that context.

But- if the piano was to dominate mix and you wanted a breathing organic feel-yeah hard to pass a real piano.

I got both and I feel both have their uses.

GJ
Newcastle/OZ

[unfairchild]

Anyone ever mix a vst piano with a real piano?

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by unfairchild

Anyone ever mix a vst piano with a real piano?

Always fantasised about Otis Redding being mixed with Britney Spears


GJ
Newcastle/OZ

[unfairchild]

Originally Posted by asagaai

Always fantasised about Otis Redding being mixed with Britney Spears


GJ
Newcastle/OZ

well when you put it that way....

[Unclenny]

Originally Posted by Sky

here it is:

Waiting For God the Producer

(RD600 controller driving NI Akoustik Piano / Steinway / Showcase with lots of compression and a bump in the mid-range.)

That's real enough for me.

[macr0w]

I don't have the room or the money for a grand piano.

But I do have a Yamaha S90-es that feels and sounds great for what it is.

All the piano players that come over love it.

That thing is by far one of my best investments.

[PinnacleProdUK]

Thanks for the replies, just to clarify as it might of been misunderstood in my OP, I have played various real Piano's and much enjoy playing them over any sample libarys and given the space, money and choice I would!

I don't think for one minuite that a RD700GX with EW for eg, can be better that a real steinway nor sound better when playing it

However my original post was geared more towards the final product (recording) and how this differs from one to the other in a mix!

As previously mentioned I would prefer a mediocre piano recorded good than a great piano recorded bad and "for some of us" the room we are in and the equipment (and even sometimes the know how) limit us to acheving a sound that "maybe, just maybe" a sampled libary could offer ibn the right context!

[Outlaw Hans]

There's some sort of belief that you need a Steinway or C7. It's just not true. You need a good grand. That's all. You can get nice older grands for reasonable money. I've played new and old pianos and while there are many dogs I can tell you that very often an older German instrument sounds more powerful than a new Steinway. I don't know if it's the aged wood or a higher production standard in the older days.
You know what? Most piano makers don't even make their own soundboards anymore. Bluethner in Leipzig being the exception. Steinway may be the one overrated brand of all. They're like Gibson or Neumann. It's all marketing and living off their heritage.
Yamaha's are neutral, slightly boring pianos that tend to impress a lot of people easily because they're loud. They lack character, which on the other hand may be good for some stuff (especially full mixes).
Not dissing the two brands, there are some great instruments by either one out there but their production standards and quality control are BELOW those of Grotrian, Bosendorfer, Bleuthner, Bechstein and OLD Hamburg Steinways. So there's no good reason why you SHOULD own a Yam or a Steinway other than because others say so.
I've a Bluthner grand from 1879 that I bought for 1600,-. I use a pair of Avenson omnis that are 500,-.I love my tone. It doesn't have to be expensive.
As far as samples go: let me put it this way. I tend to take studios with a lot of expensive gear but no piano not very seriously.

[Sky]

Originally Posted by PinnacleProdUK

Thanks for the replies, just to clarify as it might of been misunderstood in my OP, I have played various real Piano's and much enjoy playing them over any sample libarys and given the space, money and choice I would!

I don't think for one minuite that a RD700GX with EW for eg, can be better that a real steinway nor sound better when playing it

However my original post was geared more towards the final product (recording) and how this differs from one to the other in a mix!

As previously mentioned I would prefer a mediocre piano recorded good than a great piano recorded bad and "for some of us" the room we are in and the equipment (and even sometimes the know how) limit us to acheving a sound that "maybe, just maybe" a sampled libary could offer ibn the right context!

Sonically I've been okay with VIs for pop music production - for ease of recording, reasonable authenticity and variety. Akoustik Piano is my go-to for strident parts, and I like Structure / Xpand Steinway B Natural for a more laid-back sound (example: Still Water).

MKS20 is just the ticket for the Elton John sound, lo-fi RD600 mono can work well in a dance mix, and S90 offers some nice alternatives. With electronic instruments I think it's best to have and use a variety of sounds.

But I've reached the same conclusion that GJ expressed: If you want a breathing organic feeling the real piano is hard to beat. Pianos have their own personalities, I think much more than is obvious, to the extent that the piano is playing me just as vigorously as I'm playing it - truly a conversation as I mentioned in my previous post. This brings life to the performance that is very hard to emulate with VIs; the difference being more emotional than sonic in my experience.

Please forgive my rambling. Normally I'm more technical and somewhat pragmatic here, but pianos have always been a more spiritual matter.

Sky