Singers with terrible pitch .. ear training or voice training needed?

[coyotekells]

What the fundamental approach to teaching someone to hear better?

I'd like to help someone who has aspirations in singing, and a good voice, but doesn't hear so well (tone deaf haha).

They can carry the tune to some extent, but not cohesively and it seems they can't go a whole line (wow) before there's an pitch intonation issue.. then it'll go back on track, but fall off again any given moment.

Surely if the person is made aware that this is the issue, and works hard some "some steps" there could be good progress made?

Ummm.. what the hell are those steps though? Singing scales and regular voice exercises, or are ear excises maybe more relevant?

Thanks for your thoughts.. I want to be hopeful this can be taught, but it's also clear to a degree this is something people have (hear) or they don't

[stagefright13]

Rockband vocals for a start then show them Melodyne or autotune!

John

[coyotekells]

Hitting a flat or sharp point here and there is not something that can't be remedied...

It's the going OUT OF KEY (as opposed to out of tune) that Blows my mind, and has me fearing, it's a terrible sign that things may never really get to a good point.. :/

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by stagefright13

Rockband vocals for a start then show them Melodyne or autotune!

John

-1000 tutttutttuttdfegad

They need to find a good vocal coach. There are also some tutorials available on singing on disk.

The important thing in this case is ear training and practice.

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD YOU INTRODUCE THEM TO AUTOTUNE OR MELODYNE OR THEY'LL NEVER LEARN HOW TO SING!!!!!

They need to practice with a well tuned fixed pitch instrument to be able to develop the ear. If they use a guitar - it MUST be tuned to proper pitch with an electronic tuner, not to relative pitch by itself.

Originally Posted by coyotekells

Hitting a flat or sharp point here and there is not something that can't be remedied...

It's the going OUT OF KEY (as opposed to out of tune) that Blows my mind, and has me fearing, it's a terrible sign that things may never really get to a good point.. :/

All real musical achievement takes work. You don't get something for nothing. Shortcuts and "cheating" gain you nothing but the need to rely on cheating - and an insability to perform live.

[Harry Hughes]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

-1000 tutttutttuttdfegad

I think you missed the joke train there

[otobianki74]

have them contact a vocal coach. fundamentals will go a long way.

[Harry Hughes]

Singers need both, there is no question about it.
It's not just a matter of using your voice, it's a HEARING art, first and foremost. Be able to hear the correct notes via ear training is how you can actually get them coming out properly.

[DCtoDaylight]

I studied with this guy, and he really helped me a lot:

VOICELESSON.COM - MARK BAXTER VOCAL STUDIOS


He has you do scales and all, which should help with being on-key, but also puts a lot of focus on learning to relax and stay loose and isolate the muscles that affect pitch from the surrounding muscles. It's common for singers to tense up, and have their tongue and neck muscles start pulling on their larynx, which messes up their pitch, which makes them more tense, etc.

Anyway, the books and CDs on that site might be a useful tool.

[stagefright13]

Yeah but seriously a vocal coach is what is needed. Some younger singers that record already have a teacher that comes. Some producers will step in and "Voice" their opinion of the take. ETC.

But I used to be a singer so I always help people here. And tell them if it was a good take or not. But Psychology plays a lot in that. Don't bum out your singer. CHEER on the good parts and give them incentive to do well. Because singing should sound emotional. Even an average singer can sound really good and surprise themselves.

John

[redrue]

Autotune CAN help....

Hear me out here.

When a vocalist is
having a hard time hitting pitch
Autotune can be a great tool to SHOW
them exactly where and by how much they
are off. Telling a vocalist they're sharp or flat if
they're having those problems is most often
little (or no) use.

I have used Autotune to hone my own vocals
during vocal exercises and on difficult phrases
so that I don't NEED to use it later. In fact
I never record a vocal without first rehearsing
each phrase and checking my pitch with it.
(But I never tune my vocal tracks, ever. Matter
of pride you might say).

Autotune as a vocal trainer. thumbsup

There is an ear training app for the iphone that is
really cool as well... It's called Karajan.

[trauha]

No shortcuts available.
Anyone can 'sing' - but a real singer IS someone with real pitch skills.

You have not only be able to imagine (hear in your mind) notes in tune but ALSO to produce all the different intervalswith yout throat and breathing mechanisms,

If you can't sing, or imagine a scale in tune, you are not ready.
And preferably in just intonation, not in equal temperament.

You also have to be able to sing and imagine those notes that are NOT in the backing music.

For instance a B or a D on top of a C chord (C,E,G).

A professional vocal coach can sing you examples of these different scales and intervals.
Beware of amateur teachers.

TR

[- Michael P -]

Originally Posted by redrue

Autotune CAN help....

Hear me out here.

When a vocalist is
having a hard time hitting pitch
Autotune can be a great tool to SHOW
them exactly where and by how much they
are off. Telling a vocalist they're sharp or flat if
they're having those problems is most often
little (or no) use.

I have used Autotune to hone my own vocals
during vocal exercises and on difficult phrases
so that I don't NEED to use it later. In fact
I never record a vocal without first rehearsing
each phrase and checking my pitch with it.
(But I never tune my vocal tracks, ever. Matter
of pride you might say).

Autotune as a vocal trainer. thumbsup

There is an ear training app for the iphone that is
really cool as well... It's called Karajan.

That's what I actually thought as well. thumbsup

[Theo Desktop]

Originally Posted by coyotekells

Hitting a flat or sharp point here and there is not something that can't be remedied...

It's the going OUT OF KEY (as opposed to out of tune) that Blows my mind, and has me fearing, it's a terrible sign that things may never really get to a good point.. :/

I worked with a female singer who had exactly the same issue and she was working with a vocal coach at the time, as well. She had a really nice voice but when she missed a note it wasn't just a bit flat or sharp it was completely the wrong note.

It was definitely more of an exercise in ear training from what I could tell. Vocally, she had great technique and it wasn't a matter of whether or not she could hit the note (what I would infer vocal training to help), but I don't think she was hearing the proper note in her head prior to singing it. She would hit the same wrong notes fairly consistently and I would have sing the melody a bit before it would stick with her.

Theo

[Elvis Christ]

i have a very good ear but most of my family does not...so i've dealt with this. recently i was giving my 13 yr. old nephew some guitar lessons and realized that he inherited the tone-deaf gene. one thing i found when trying to get him to sing pitches was that it really helped to give him pitches within his comfortable vocal range. his range was literally about one and a half whole steps (3 notes total). he could hit the notes within this range somewhat accurately. start there, and you might have a chance of pulling them out. and...some people don't have a problem hearing a pitch, but do have a problem reproducing a pitch...kinda of "tone mute". i've given maybe 10,000 or more guitar lesson so i've seen all kinds.
you should hear when my family sings happy birthday....LOL.
no autotune could ever fix it....ever.

[AmongstTheLiving]

Originally Posted by Elvis Christ

you should hear when my family sings happy birthday....LOL.
no autotune could ever fix it....ever.

I feel your ear pain.

I've developed a damn good ear for pitch and tone if I do say so myself. I would say I was completely tone deaf in my teens. I can even compose multiple harmonies in my head now (a feat I'm very proud of and worked very hard to learn.) However, my voice is a different story. For me I can hear the note, know exactly what's supposed to come out of my mouth, but whatever reason I cannot for the life of me make the right sound if I'm singing by myself. However, give me an auto-tuned track to sing along with and it'll come out pretty damn close. The ONLY time I use AT. And it never even makes it into the mix!

I would say in the OP's case, ear and voice lessons/practice are needed equally. I think actually writing songs with guitar harmonies helped me the most in understanding what notes need to be where. As for the voice part of it, I'll let you know when I get it figured out...

[GeorgeHayduke]

I think that some people (my mom, for instance) are just tone deaf.

But I have a couple of tips, apart from the obvious, namely getting a good coach:

1) If the singer likes to listen to scratch tracks while singing, tell them they can't do that no more. It will help a lot. Always mute recorded tracks, so they can't hear any vocals, at all.

2) If the singer has a tendency to tighten up all their muscles in an attempt to control their pitch, tell them it works the other way around.

3) Ask the singer to add a bit of tremolo, if they can. It might make it less obvious, and mask bad pitch as expression

[Karloff70]

There's the voice one's been given. That's the car. Then there's the motor skills of driving. That's the technicality of physical singing. Then there's the inate ability to hear your ( and that's YOUR individual way) way around the coming corners like you're led by some outer force. The first one and its quality/limitations is quickly obvious, but can be improved by training the second one. The third one you either have or not. That third one will include the ability to preempt the right note and hit it, although training willimprove accuracy on this part, much like with an acoustic guitar that has been played in and 'comfortably hits the right resonance'. More importantly how the vocal strings itself along phrasing wise to make the music fluid is part of number 3 and that part I don't believe you can teach at all and to my mind it only gets interesting/magical when that one's in play. Sorry, possibly useless rant

On the suggestions front, maybe have the singer hum the first note of the vocal for a few seconds in the bars before the vocal starts.....sets the resonance physically and at least gives a correct starting point to start 'surfing' from.....then its up to her surfing ability from there......

[studiostuff]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you can't teach people to sing.

Some folks are born with the ability to hear pitch and sing it back. It's a gift you can't download the torrent to obtain.

Those who aren't born with it, while they can be trained to be better than without training... will never be singers. They are also pretty reluctant to admit they don't and won't have it.

I've worked with "singers" all my life. The problem is in the definition of singer. People who can talk in rhythm are not singers. People who don't hear pitch will never be singers. I'm sure many "singers" will disagree. That's fine with me.

[88fingerz]

Originally Posted by studiostuff

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you can't teach people to sing.

Some folks are born with the ability to hear pitch and sing it back. It's a gift you can't download the torrent to obtain.

Those who aren't born with it, while they can be trained to be better than without training... will never be singers. They are also pretty reluctant to admit they don't and won't have it.

I've worked with "singers" all my life. The problem is in the definition of singer. People who can talk in rhythm are not singers. People who don't hear pitch will never be singers. I'm sure many "singers" will disagree. That's fine with me.

Nails it!

[Booster_Kitty]

THIS IS SOMEONE IN MY BAND POSTING ISN'T IT?!?!

I'm with the poster above. Some people are great singers. Some people are ok. Some just can't. The ok people can learn to sing better. The others should just do it in the shower.

[dougb415]

Originally Posted by coyotekells

I'd like to help someone who has aspirations in singing, and a good voice, but doesn't hear so well (tone deaf haha).

They have a good voice AND they're tone deaf?

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by dougb415

They have a good voice AND they're tone deaf?

Happens. Born with great car (tone) in the throat, no idea on how to or where to drive it. Pity.

[88fingerz]

Originally Posted by dougb415

They have a good voice AND they're tone deaf?

Yes! I know someone with the same discription! It's a curse I tells ya...

I always likened it to the young fastballin' Nolan Ryan. When he was a NY Met in the late 60's he had that unbelievable fastball but couldn't throw a strike for his life when needed. The Mets lost hope & traded him for a 3rd baseman, Jim Fregosi.

Needless to say, Mr. Ryan found his aim and the rest is history!

So to wrap it up, Good Voice/Tone Deaf=Great arm, bad aim.

To me. t'

[namsabnek]

I could never understand how somebody who can't sing in tune would want to be a singer. I, for example, am 50, bald and color blind. I wouldn't choose to be a hair model, a painter or a boxer because of my limitations. It would be a pointless battle for me. I don't speak of the singer who hits a bad note now and again, but the ones who have no grasp of melody at all. Somebody explain this please

[The MPCist]

I tend to believe that pitch is a God-given talent that you are born with or aren't. Most people are pretty decent with pitch although there are still some with a degree of tone/pitch deafness....

Vocal lessons, multiple recording sessions, changing different songs to suit their particular 'problem', and then there's Melodyne and Auto-Tune -- we all do what we can do!

And,yeah, the above poster has a great point. I don't see myself struggling to try to be an NBA player -- just not it for me

[Mark Kaufman]

A professional vocal coach is what this person needs...and it will be a longshot. Ear training CAN be taught and learned...I've seen it done. But when they just don't know if they're within even a few tones of a note, that definitely raises the ante into one, long, hard, uphill battle.

If the person shows enough commitment and determination, it can definitely be done with a pro teaching them. But it's a lot like watching those 400 pounders on TV commit to slimming down to 120.

[Phil Aiken]

Originally Posted by DCtoDaylight

I studied with this guy, and he really helped me a lot:

VOICELESSON.COM - MARK BAXTER VOCAL STUDIOS


He has you do scales and all, which should help with being on-key, but also puts a lot of focus on learning to relax and stay loose and isolate the muscles that affect pitch from the surrounding muscles. It's common for singers to tense up, and have their tongue and neck muscles start pulling on their larynx, which messes up their pitch, which makes them more tense, etc.

Anyway, the books and CDs on that site might be a useful tool.

Another recommendation for Mark. Excellent teacher and a great guy.
One very pertinent (paraphrased from memory) quote about singing in tune:
"Once you can hear the note, it's too late"
Meaning of course, that your muscle memory needs to be there to hit the note. Of course, having an ear allows you to know when you ARE in tune and how it feels to vocalize that pitch, but you can have great ears, and without training your voice, still not be able to hit notes when they are first attacked.

[coyotekells]

Thanks for all the thoughts and input folks!

I think she is less hopeless than I make her out to be, but I just want to know what I'm getting into before I take on this PRO BONO project for a friend.
I've only heard her sing acapella (both live for me, and a shitty "in the washroom" recording as well).

Having the guitar track or whatever to maintain pitch reference I'm sure will make things better right off the bat.

I already believe with my own coaching ability I can make her sound "good" if the right material is chosen.

What I was really wondering, is how far away (if even possible) am I from getting a star sound out of her (I don't mean wowing people with a stadium performance.. more like laboring for 2 days straight to get a recording that sounds very, very impressive).

I think I will just have take a shot, and feel it out from there. I don't have a problem being honest going in.. so if she's really too far from being saved, I guess that'll be the outcome. But maybe there will be good surprises once the ball gets rolling. I try to have positive outlook

[bigfurry]

I have taught singing in a few different contexts, so I'll throw in 2 cents...

Pitch problems can be either technique or hearing. I have taught a few guys with great technique who just couldn't hear pitch relationships. We made progress, but it was painful, and involved listening exersizes starting with "which note is higher?" It took months. Not so fun. Actually I'd rather poke my eye out with a sharp stick than do that again...

On the other hand, there are many world class musicians on their own instrument, or "golden eared" engineers, that can't sing. When you think on this it becomes clear that poor technique is the problem, and it usually comes from either too much pressing, if the off notes are sustained, or the lack of "point" (think a bright 3k harmonic thing, you engineer minded folk), if the off notes are passing notes while doing runs. If the singer has a problem bridging the gap from chest to head, they're always flat, while those with good head quality who press, like bright tenors for example, are more often than not sharp. Not much you can do in the short term to try to get them from pressing, but in the longer term, you can make significant changes.

So can someone learn to sing? Absolutely. Absolutely, but like anything people are born with natural levels for talent in anything, and unlike anything else, with singing you can't see what your doing, and most people can't hear themselves clearly, so you have to find someone who can help you, and you have to make a big, lengthy effort.

If it wasn't hard enough, if you are giging regularily, it's an incredible bitch to change technique without lots of time to undo the damage and the bad habits.

SO it aint easy, but I have seen many people learn to sing.

Now to go meet my inlaws who have been sleeping in my living room for the past three days. I may have some tequilla. First.

[Fastermouse]

Originally Posted by studiostuff

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you can't teach people to sing.

Some folks are born with the ability to hear pitch and sing it back. It's a gift you can't download the torrent to obtain.

Those who aren't born with it, while they can be trained to be better than without training... will never be singers. They are also pretty reluctant to admit they don't and won't have it.

I've worked with "singers" all my life. The problem is in the definition of singer. People who can talk in rhythm are not singers. People who don't hear pitch will never be singers. I'm sure many "singers" will disagree. That's fine with me.

This is entirely untrue. I was born with no actual ability to control or even hear the pitch of my own voice, I have a very precise ear when it comes to outer created pitches, but I couldn't carry a tune in a bucket when it came to singing. For 20 years I sang and sang and all to no avail. I just sounded pitchy and awful. But then I learned how to sing. I learned to hear intervals and sing them in my head. To control my inner voice. It can be done. But it either takes a good teacher or a "ah ha" moment to reach it.