latency using outboard with digital desks

[mac black]

Hi guys,

Its like that, (using a digital desk) sending a kick to a distressor via a buss but there is latency on the return ..... the only way I could solve it is by:

1) delaying the track in PT befor sending it to outboard.

2) printing back to PT and sorting it out there.


My problem is that I like using the kick (sometimes the snare too) as a trigger (ducking etc.) so delaying it inside the computer is not a solution.

I sometimes duplicate the channel and delay it without sending it to an output (to be used as a trigger) but it gets annoying after a while.....

Does anyone use a different method ? (except using an analog desk

cheers

mac

[gwailoh]

Are you in PT HD? If yes, you can simply turn on delay compensation and let PT figure it all out for you automatically. (Turn it off during overdubbing.)

[XSergeantD]

I just went over the whole delay compensation. I thought that was for your plugins (OK, I just skimmed over it) does the compensation take into acc't the A/D, D/A delay? I think thats what he's asking. If not, you can use this in HD and manually add compensation to all tracks, and remove the delay (or whatever the delay measured) on the tracks you're sending to OB gear.
If you don't know the delay, send out of a track and loop back in and record on diff track and zoom to see the delay.

[gwailoh]

Delay compensation in PT TDM does calculate delay on hardware inserts. Whether that also means bus sends and aux returns... I dunno! I'll ask my friendly PT support engineer and post the reply.

[mac black]

Cheers guys,

Im not talking about doing it ITB, Im using an 02R96 (PT PDC always on).

The problem is this, PT going out via digi192 to an 02R96, I have a kick on channel 25 (out 1 from PT), Im sending the kick via a buss to a distressor which returns on channel 1 of the desk, there is a delay between the original kick and the distressored kick, I cant delay the original kick backwords and I obviously cant delay the distressed channel (its a realtime feed from the kick channel).
I can't seem to be able to do it on the desk(negative delay),

I like to duck other bits with the kick so I can't delay it without affecting other channels (unless I create a duplicate trigger channel)

[matt thomas]

copy the track and use two kick drum channels, one for triggering, and one (delay compensated) for sending to eq

[jdunn]

Sucks!

Why don't they build automatic delay compensation into digital consoles? DAW's have it. I predict the next generation of digital boards will have this.

I would never buy another digital board though. The control surface/DAW paradigm shift is in full effect. That Euphonix MC is pretty cool, but $23,000 is a bit much for an edit controller with 4 faders. Still I might check one out.

I wish AMS Neve would build a reasonably priced but badass control surface that looked and felt like a real console. A surface similar to the Libra would be cool maybe. Something really sexy, I guess in the same price range as the Euphonix (the little one) and the ID Controller, around $20,000. Probably never happen though.

[TheSweetener]

Originally Posted by jdunn

Sucks!

Why don't they build automatic delay compensation into digital consoles? DAW's have it. .

That's because DAWs can "look in the future". Digital mixers can't. They don't know what's going to be at their inputs. The only solution is to take the "slowest" channel as a reference to the rest, which means that everything is delayed.
OK for mixing, bad for tracking.

[jdunn]

Right. But why not have a Mix Mode where you can delay all the channels 250 ms or whatever is needed so that the latency compensation can work.

[5down1up]

you could move the kick in pt . so the starting time + sending to a bus + hardware insert (adda ) = the original time position ?!
or you gonna delay all the other tracks on the desk ( clueless bout the 02r ) !

[matt thomas]

desk manufacturers should work with Daw manufacturers and get the mixers to communicate with the DAW and get latency issues sorted between mixer/daw.

mixer says "hey I've got a 1024 sample latency effect on channel 1"

DAW says "well in that case I'll send you channel one 1024 samples earlier than the rest"

mixer says "great, nice doing bsuiness with you"

narco

[5down1up]

well i guess you could have some like that if you simply throw just time adjuster on every channel . you calculate the different sampledelays that happen in your scenario and you simply adjust to taste using the TA plug ?

not a super solution , without a speaking module as well , but it works @ least

[DirkB]

Originally Posted by mac black

Cheers guys,

Im not talking about doing it ITB, Im using an 02R96 (PT PDC always on).

The problem is this, PT going out via digi192 to an 02R96, I have a kick on channel 25 (out 1 from PT), Im sending the kick via a buss to a distressor which returns on channel 1 of the desk, there is a delay between the original kick and the distressored kick, I cant delay the original kick backwords and I obviously cant delay the distressed channel (its a realtime feed from the kick channel).
I can't seem to be able to do it on the desk(negative delay),

I like to duck other bits with the kick so I can't delay it without affecting other channels (unless I create a duplicate trigger channel)

I do this all the time with my DM1000.

at 44.1khz, the roundtrip DA/AD takes about 46ms.

One way to go about it:
Delay all channels that have an incoming digital signal from PT with 46ms. Now, if you want to have a parallel compressor on the kick for example, have the corresponding PT output come up on 2 channels (this is one of the nice features of the routing matrix in the Yamaha desks), but don't delay the one where you insert the compressor. That's it, now you can compress the kick like you want to and mix it with the original track.

I do the same with the busses: I configure 4 stereo busses and delay them 46samples. Usually I have bus1&2 compressed (drums) and there I take the delay of. Bus 7&8 don't get an insert and are delayed, so if I want hard compression on the drums and use that parallel to the uncompressed drums, I also send the drums to bus 7&8?

Makes sense? Really, it's not that complex.
Lots more options to make it work.

Good luck,
Dirk

[mac black]

Originally Posted by DirkB

I do this all the time with my DM1000.

at 44.1khz, the roundtrip DA/AD takes about 46ms.

One way to go about it:
Delay all channels that have an incoming digital signal from PT with 46ms. Now, if you want to have a parallel compressor on the kick for example, have the corresponding PT output come up on 2 channels (this is one of the nice features of the routing matrix in the Yamaha desks), but don't delay the one where you insert the compressor. That's it, now you can compress the kick like you want to and mix it with the original track.

I do the same with the busses: I configure 4 stereo busses and delay them 46samples. Usually I have bus1&2 compressed (drums) and there I take the delay of. Bus 7&8 don't get an insert and are delayed, so if I want hard compression on the drums and use that parallel to the uncompressed drums, I also send the drums to bus 7&8?

Makes sense? Really, it's not that complex.
Lots more options to make it work.

Good luck,
Dirk

Thanks Dirk thats great, Im glad you even calculated the delay....46ms.

How can I route a digital channel to an analog one ? e.g. If I have the kick coming back from PT on channel 25 (digitally) can I route it to channel 1 (analog) so I could use the Inserts ? I have tried it but couldn't get it to work.

On another note, I need more outputs from the O2R96, I have quite a few outboard bits but only 8 omni outs (aux OR buss). If I buy another 8 output card will I be able to send the busses or auxes to it ? (have 8 outs for the busses AND 8 for Aux ?)

Cheers

mac

[5down1up]

just in fact of its 46ms for dirk on his dm 1000 doesnt neccesarily mean thats its the same amount with the 02r !

one time dirks saying ms one time hes saying samples ?

i just know for my 888/24s its 71 samples adda , the manual says its 81 ? well ... whatever

[mac black]

Originally Posted by 5down1up

just in fact of its 46ms for dirk on his dm 1000 doesnt neccesarily mean thats its the same amount with the 02r !

one time dirks saying ms one time hes saying samples ?

i just know for my 888/24s its 71 samples adda , the manual says its 81 ? well ... whatever

I see ...maybe I should have a look at the manual ...lazy me

I think the delay would be in samples (i might be wrong...manual manual ...ahhh maybe google search would help ).

One should think that DM1000 and 02R96 use the same converters, no?

cheers

mac

[DirkB]

I meant 46samples. I checked it by putting a snaredrum on two tracks, one being routed to outboard (in bypass), the other not. Then flip phase on one of them and adjust the delay of the "digital only" track until the sum is canceled almost completely.

To mac black: spend some time on the manual and dig through the use of inserts. It's a little dificult for me to explain in a couple of sentences, but it's really easy and intuitiv.

Greetings,
Dirk

[mac black]

Originally Posted by DirkB

I meant 46samples. I checked it by putting a snaredrum on two tracks, one being routed to outboard (in bypass), the other not. Then flip phase on one of them and adjust the delay of the "digital only" track until the sum is canceled almost completely.

To mac black: spend some time on the manual and dig through the use of inserts. It's a little dificult for me to explain in a couple of sentences, but it's really easy and intuitiv.

Greetings,
Dirk

02R96 - 100samples ....