BBE Sonic maximizer

[fhames]

As I have been browsing Craigslist seeking a DW kit for under 1 mil I've noticed a plethora of BBE Sonic Maximizers for sale: cheap. I have to hand it to BBE for the marketing ploy that our speaker systems are somehow out of alignment and the treble and bass don't come out at the same time. I was a victim back in the 80's, until a very good engineer, (John Mayfield), informed me of the bullshit I had been victimized by. This company and Guitar Center have made a large fortune selling this shit to unwise recording musicians like me. Props to BBE for makin' the grade!



wwwbryanthamesmusiccom

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by fhames

As I have been browsing Craigslist seeking a DW kit for under 1 mil I've noticed a plethora of BBE Sonic Maximizers for sale: cheap. I have to hand it to BBE for the marketing ploy that our speaker systems are somehow out of alignment and the treble and bass don't come out at the same time. I was a victim back in the 80's, until a very good engineer, (John Mayfield), informed me of the bullshit I had been victimized by. This company and Guitar Center have made a large fortune selling this shit to unwise recording musicians like me. Props to BBE for makin' the grade!
wwwbryanthamesmusiccom

They were good for adding top end to 1st and 2nd generation keyboard and drum sounds, sometimes some soft audio cassettes, but not so useful if you did it right the first time. I liked the Aphex Aural Exciter better. Still have one. Don't use it.

Come to think of it, if anyone wants it I'll sell it.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Lonnie5]

live use in a large room the thing is great. but recording=craparoo

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by Lonnie5

live use in a large room the thing is great. but recording=craparoo

Right! live. PA systems can suck the life out of some sounds. I showed up to play at a gig last year and they were using AKG C1000 mics on the acoustic guitars.

YUCK! my studio brain thought. But the compromises in the PA knocked the edge right off those mics and they sounded OK. You learn something new every day.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[couped127]

i have a BBE 482i Sonic Maximizer . I am green to the recording game a little but know a little. Either way, I am attempting to connect my BBE 482i Sonic Maximizer to my Digi 002 Mixer Console. It seems like I need 4 cables because im dealing with balanced and unbalanced i think.

What kind of cables do i need? What are the best cables to go with, and i am not talking about brands. I just need to know what cables should i purchase to connect to my 002 and how to or where to hook them up at on both units. Its probably a no brainer but i want to be sure.

[Brainchild]

...did you read this thread?

But at least you have the BBE and not the Aphex. Why merely Excite your sound when you can MAXIMIZE it?!

[Kiwi]

This unit has two unbalanced inputs (left and right) and two unbalanced outputs (left and right). It is extremely easy to insert into an unbalanced system, such as a hifi or a stereo guitar rig.

It has no place in a pro or even semi-pro recording rig that uses balanced cables.

But assuming you want to use it anyway - the question is which part of your sound do you want to **** up the most? Do you want to insert it into your monitoring chain? Thus ensuring that what you are hearing is NOT what you are recording and mixing? Or do you want to insert it into your tracking chain? Thus ensuring that what you are recording has an extra layer of hiss, and artifical treble, maximising the area that gives digital recordings the most trouble? Or do you want to insert it as an optional external process during mixing? This would be the most effective, as it would give you the opportunity to avoid using it ...

Read this thread again. Then google and read every other thread since - say - 1990 about these things. You will find people like them in noisy live situations, and hate them for recording. Unless they are still recording with cassette portastudios, which are so noisy and dull it doesn't matter.

You can get a plugin version, which at least doesn't have the noise of these cheap analog units. They are still a mistake - unless you have recorded the material badly in the first place.

[TRJanuary]

First of all, "sonic maximizing" and "aurel exciting" are 2 completely different processes/circuits that have nothing to do with each other. Hundreds of records you have heard used an aurel exciter somewhere in the chain.

Second, the comment about unbalanced gear somehow being less than professional is totally wrong. The insert points on old SSL's are unbalanced. And raw api 500 modules. Many desirable pieces of gear have unbalanced connections. Some famous mastering engineers use a 100% unbalanced setup.

Balanced audio is actually less "pure" because balancing can only be accomplished with extra circuitry, or transformers. Some folks find both objectionable.

[Kiwi]

Originally Posted by TRJanuary

First of all, "sonic maximizing" and "aurel exciting" are 2 completely different processes/circuits that have nothing to do with each other. Hundreds of records you have heard used an aurel exciter somewhere in the chain.

Second, the comment about unbalanced gear somehow being less than professional is totally wrong. The insert points on old SSL's are unbalanced. And raw api 500 modules. Many desirable pieces of gear have unbalanced connections. Some famous mastering engineers use a 100% unbalanced setup.

Balanced audio is actually less "pure" because balancing can only be accomplished with extra circuitry, or transformers. Some folks find both objectionable.

Agreed - but I think at the level of gear that the OP has, this is an academic point.

Most modern DAW interfaces and active monitors work with balanced gear, and it would be a compromise to insert cheap, noisy, unnecessary unbalanced stuff.

I did not mean to say that unbalanced is unprofessional. Just that this is cheap, noisy, unnecessary unbalanced stuff - and to go out of your way to try and insert it into a modern DAW situation seems pointless ...

And are you seriously suggesting that somebody with and old SSL or API console would want to insert a BBE??????

[uncle duncan]

I use my hardware unit for transferring cassettes or LP's into the DAW. I got the plugin from Nomad to use as a last resort on dull acoustic guitar tracks or poorly recording drum tracks. It can wake up a kick drum or add a little life to a dead snare. Beyond those specific uses, it's a great way to ruin a track, or a mix.

[Raider]

Using BBE is not a problem.
OVER using it is.
It can be quite handy in select situations.

[Manfrensengensen]

BBE uses Freq alignment technology/manipulation
Aphex design adds/uses harmonics
More control with Aphex as you can tune what hi/low freq area you want to hone in on.

I have an Aphex in a rack for live use in a pinch but use it very little. Sometimes it can be handy as stated when copying old demo tapes into digital or adding a little to the sound when mixing for others that have low end PA gear it can help.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Raider

Using BBE is not a problem.
OVER using it is.
It can be quite handy in select situations.

Indeed. Used to love it over a group to bang things in which got a bit lost for definition at the back of the mix at one point.....did work well for that, set conservatively.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by uncle duncan

I use my hardware unit for transferring cassettes or LP's into the DAW.

me too

BBE was my Secret Weapon when transferring old transcription disks (78's) of opera and orchestral recordings to digital.

It acts almost like a single-ended noise reduction, but with far fewer artifacts

[darkhorse]

I have used one of these for like a decade, my rack unit recently died and I got the new pedal model to integrate on my board. I really, really missed the sonic enhancement this device had on my tone, I never realized until it died on me how much it improved everything!

I consider the BBE sonic maximizer the best sonic enhancement invention of the last decade.
Just improves everything, guitar rig, PA, recording, simply amazing.

I have this installed in my amp loop from my pedalboard and it stays on all the time. Just makes any tone no matter the gain or timber BETTER. Best $100 I have ever dropped. I always tell players that in all honesty it really is like taking a blanket off your speakers or cab. I read one guy said it could not tell anything on his gained up sound, really, I cannot imagine how that would be possible, BBE website has some decent comparisions of the effect on cleans and dirt, really has a tremendous quality improvement.

[patheticus]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

And are you seriously suggesting that somebody with and old SSL or API console would want to insert a BBE??????

This quote made me laugh because in the Foo Fighters documentary "Back and Forth" there's a BBE Sonic Maximizer racked up right next to their API console in the footage of them tracking and mixing "Wasting Light".

Somebody = Butch Vig, Alan Moulder and Dave Grohl.

I never use these things. I'm curious about what they used it on. Or if it was part of their guitar signal chain.

[TRJanuary]

Yes, it was an silly quote. PLus, neither myself nor the original poster said anything about "DAW"s

PLus, most GS users don't accept that unbalanced gear is everywhere, and you would be hard pressed to even avoid it because often unbalanced gear is disguised as balanced. For example, some of the most popular Manley pieces are unbalanced disguised as balanced.

[patheticus]

Originally Posted by TRJanuary

Yes, it was an silly quote. PLus, neither myself nor the original poster said anything about "DAW"s

PLus, most GS users don't accept that unbalanced gear is everywhere, and you would be hard pressed to even avoid it because often unbalanced gear is disguised as balanced. For example, some of the most popular Manley pieces are unbalanced disguised as balanced.

Are you replying to me? I'm confused about how your mention of "DAW"s fit's in to this thread?

[Aeolian]

If you search on the ProSoundWeb live sound section, you'll find these things are pretty hated by pro live folks as well.

Many years ago I had a BBE bass preamp. The effect wasn't too bad on a bass rig. But fresh strings work better.

I do find the multi-band "exciter" in Ozone to be pretty useful in moderation.

[TRJanuary]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

.......and to go out of your way to try and insert it into a modern DAW situation seems pointless ..

....

[Kiwi]

OK, maybe I was a bit OTT. I fell for the BBE thing back in the 80's or early 90's, whenever it happened. I was using cassette 4 track at the time, and under that layer of hiss ANYTHING sounded good.

By the time I got digital and started to notice noise issues, I couldn't live with the extra noise floor from BBE and didn't need any extra highs or lows.

I think BBE is a marketing gimmick, mainly. They say the effect is not EQ - but they add EQ, and most people simply use it like a smiley face EQ. Mere mortals are so easy fooled into thinking that more smiley face EQ is good. It's how audiophools get suckered into buying graphic equalizers too.

There is a little bit of science behind the marketing gimmick and the patent. The effect is basically an All Pass filter, and it helps to compensate for the phase shifts created by speakers and electronic circuits.

The weird thing is that in this digital age we are reverting to using outboard analog gear to replicate these phase shift "problems" ... so why we would want to try to undo that with a noisy box eludes me. Must just be the smiley face EQ ...

I would FAR rather have a quality analog EQ. I guess the reason that bass players etc liked to use them was because they were unbalanced and interfaced easily with instrument FX loops ...

There probably aren't enough GOOD plugin All Pass filters otherwise i'm sure these would be talked about more. RefinedAudioMetrics have an excellent All Pass filter algorithmn.

[AussieJR]

I don't have the hardware but I have the plugin and I use it sometimes on a group bus of dirty guitars. It can just add a bit of eq that brightens it up a bit etc.

I'm not going to admit any more than that. It has its purpose if it sounds good at the time use it.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

The effect is basically an All Pass filter, and it helps to compensate for the phase shifts created by speakers and electronic circuits.

Every loudspeaker has different drivers and different crossover frequencies with different slopes etc. Those frequencies are in the middle of the audio range, such as 800 Hz or 3 KHz. The phase shift in electronic circuits is typically at the frequency extremes for various reasons, and never in the middle of the range. So how could a device "know" what frequencies to affect? Further, I've never seen evidence that the phase shift from such an all-pass filter is even audible.

--Ethan

[Kiwi]

The effect of an All Pass filter is basically transparent - until you layer it with the original, and then you realise you have a Phaser ...

I understood that much of the phase shifting in a speaker was simply the inertia of the magnet, paper cone and the air etc, so this effect was worse on high frequencies. But also in electric circuits, capacitors take time to charge and discharge, and inductors take time to build a magnetic field and then collapse. So everything in an electronic audio system has the effect of skewing the phase shift more for the higher frequencies.

The basic theory of BBE (as I understand it) is that you electronically delay the mid range frequencies by way of a crossover and all pass filter. This has the effect of allowing the highs (and the lows) to arrive slightly ahead of the mids, and therefore being more prominent.

The analogy I understood was like strumming a guitar: if you strum it from high to low strings, it sounds brighter than if you strum it from low to high - simply because our ear/brain responds to the first sounds we hear.

You can achieve pretty much the same thing by choosing to mount your tweeters closer to the front of the cab than your midrange.

The plugin version doesn't add noise, so yeah - if it works in a mix as an eq substitute, why not. Refined Audiometrics had a plugin that used to be free (might still be) that was pretty similar (based on their excellent All Pass filter and eq algorithmns) and it seemed to me to be superior to the old BBE stuff I had. (To be fair, I sold the BBE years ago, so couldn't directly compare, but I am certain I would never use hardware BBE but would consider using plugins of this calibre).

[Jay M]

I wasted about an hour of my life at Guitar Center trying to choose a set of PA speakers only to realize that there was a BBE processor in the chain screwing up the sound.

Once I bypassed the BBE all the speakers sounded better. The BBE almost caused me to write off many speakers because I they were harsh, distorted and artificial sounding. It turns out it was just the BBE unit "maximizing" them.

I suppose that if you are hard of hearing, or have excessive wax buildup in your ears then the BBE might help.

~Jay

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Kiwi

The effect of an All Pass filter is basically transparent - until you layer it with the original, and then you realise you have a Phaser

Exactly.

So everything in an electronic audio system has the effect of skewing the phase shift more for the higher frequencies.

Yes, at the high (and low) extremes. But the amount of shift that occurs naturally in most gear is too small to matter. Versus a loudspeaker crossover network whose phase shift is more near the center of the audible range, and whose outputs do combine acoustically in the air. So how can a single device with no adjustments for frequency and phase shift amount address all speaker models?

This has the effect of allowing the highs (and the lows) to arrive slightly ahead of the mids, and therefore being more prominent.

That doesn't make sense to me. "Prominent" implies a frequency response / level change. If some stuff arrives a millisecond or two later or earlier, that won't affect the basic tonality. I know what you're saying about strumming high to low versus low to high, but that difference spans an appreciable part of a second. And you are actually playing high notes first, with their harmonics etc. So I don't see that as a valid comparison. Have you ever experimented with an all-pass filter? It's an interesting exercise.

--Ethan

[cnymike]

This is a timely thread for me as I've used a BBE 322 in my DJ rig for years and was considering purchasing the newer 882.

My gear is not top end by any means but I always considered the BBE to be a good investment as it seemed to dramatically improve the clarity of the sound. As others describe it, it sounds as if a blanket has been lifted off the front of the speakers.

So I just purchased new speakers, the EV LiveX 112P and to me they sound fantastic. Previously I had been using EV sx300. I did some A/B comparisons of the 112P's with the sx300 with and without the BBE in the chain and in both cases the sound seemed brighter with more clarity. It was a sound quality that I could not duplicate using the simple 3-band EQ built in to my Denon DNX800 mixer.

So while talking to another audio enthusiast recently, he recommended I ditch the BBE and get an Aphex Aural Exciter instead. He also recommended I get an Aphex Dominator.

I don't have the technical background to understand the pros and cons of the BBE vx the Aphex Aural Exciter and in fact I have yet to "hear" the Aural Exciter in action. All I know is what I've experienced with the BBE during my DJ gigs and to me it makes things sound better.

I am inclined to listen to the Aural Exciter and use that based on all the negatives I keep hearing about the BBE but maybe the BBE negatives are mostly for in studio use and not so pertinent to a DJ situation where pre-recorded music is being used.

Anyway, would like to hear more commentary on this from the "pros."

[joeq]

Originally Posted by cnymike

So while talking to another audio enthusiast recently, he recommended I ditch the BBE and get an Aphex Aural Exciter instead. He also recommended I get an Aphex Dominator.

The Aual Exciter also fits into the category of psychoacoustic processor, but it works on an entirely different principle than the BBE. About the only thing they have in common is their attempt to be a "Better" Box. "Better", of course, being a subjective judgment of the listener.

It is not necessarily an "instead" kind of item. Some people string a bunch of these processors together in a row. Notoriously, Top 40 radio stations. Keep in mind that all such devices are, at their core, 'cheating' by taking advantage of the quirks of human hearing (thus the name 'psychoacoustic') and that things sounding "worse" when you remove them is a little bit like an addict feeling 'worse' when his drug is withheld.

You need to strive for a cold objectivity when flirting with such devices.

The Dominator is a multiband limiter. I am not sure if a DJ playing already Mastered-to-Death records really needs a multiband limiter in the chain.

[cnymike]

The recommendation for me to get the Dominator I think was his concern that someone operating my system might overdrive the speakers and this would enable me to help prevent that from happening. I'd rather not add another item to my rig unless really necessary and since I'm usually not allowing other people to operate my system, this seems like something I don't really need.

I do believe I understand somewhat the differences between the BBE Sonic Maximizer and the Aphex Aural Exciter. Keeping in mind that I am not a studio but someone who plays digital music (either CD's or digital files such as mp3, WAV or whatever), what a recording studio might disdain, may not apply to me. My goal is to present a good quality sound and if that sound can be improved by the addition of a BBE or Aphex Aural Exciter, then I'm game.

I've used the BBE with good results and I'm just curious about the Aural Exciter as it may achieve my goal of better sound but in a different way than the BBE. Isn't it reasonable to say that they achieve a similar end result but with a different approach?

[Brandovibe]

Anyone have any experience in using either a maximizer or an Aural exciter solely on vocals in a live application? From what i have read it can make the vocals cut through the mix of a loud band and make it sound bigger and more spacious without adding actual volume. If you think this could help, would it be better to use it in before or after an effects processor?

Thanks for any input.