What about recording Mid-Side?

[Sk106]

I’m curious as to why people are not using the Mid-Side (M/S) recording model more - for micing drum overheads, room mics and other smaller stereo recording situations.

To me, it seems like a very truthful but most of all a very flexible and easy to use and setup method. I’m told that it’s predominantly popular in TV and Radio situations, when the uptake and stereo image just has to work right away.

In over 10 years my drums were never recorded using M/S by anyone. And I have never seen nor heard anybody elses drums being recorded that way either. All the times it is A/B or X/Y. Is it perhaps because the MS method needs like 2 mic stands that makes it feel cumbersome? or perhaps it makes the directing of the mics towards the soundsource more difficult?

Does anyone here record much using M/S? What are your experiences and opinions?

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by Sk106

I’m curious as to why people are not using the Mid-Side (M/S) recording model more - for micing drum overheads, room mics and other smaller stereo recording situations.

To me, it seems like a very truthful but most of all a very flexible and easy to use and setup method. I’m told that it’s predominantly popular in TV and Radio situations, when the uptake and stereo image just has to work right away.

In over 10 years my drums were never recorded using M/S by anyone. And I have never seen nor heard anybody elses drums being recorded that way either. All the times it is X/Y. Is it perhaps because the MS method needs like 2 mic stands that makes it feel cumbersome?

Does anyone here record much using M/S? What are your experiences and opinions?

I record a lot of mid-side.... but not drums.... M/S doesn't seem to give me as wide of a stereo image as I can get with a good omni AB setup in a great room. The panning of where the hat & floor tom ends up is not "true".

I do mostly acoustic guitars, percussion & other things in mid-side ESPECAILLY when I know I will not be mixing the project... it gives the mixer a great mono mic (the omni or cardioid) and if they would like stereo they can fade it up if they like.

Its also nice when I record things for broadcast when mono compatability is a must.

I also like experimenting with a shotgun microphone as the mid to still have the presence and focus of the mid but a lot less early reflections and more late reflections in the side mic. You need a great room though!

[Ca$h Marty]

I roll M/S as room mics all the time. My room is less than desirable acoustically so at minimum you get a good mono mic and then you can blend in as much room as you want.

[chonchball]

Originally Posted by Ca$h Marty

I roll M/S as room mics all the time. My room is less than desirable acoustically so at minimum you get a good mono mic and then you can blend in as much room as you want.

I record MS a whole lot. Mostly on rock drums and acoustic guitar. I love the trick where you use a Cascade Fathead (or any figure 8 ribbon, but the cascade is what i use) as your side mic, and a nice condensor for your middle (like a u87), and after the take is recorded/comped, copy the ribbon mic track, flip the phase, and spread each channel out hard L & R. It immediately brings an insanely wide image to the source sound and is great when you want to make more room in center stage for vocals or snare in the mix, or especially if a song is one acoustic guitar and voice. You can really make the guitar larger than life without a bunch of processing to give the guitar depth and space and not sound dull and puny in the final mix of just guitar and voice

[shaneoconnor]

it is my go to technique for acoustic guitars, especially in a singer songwriter application where you are building the arrangement around an acoustic guitar and vocal.

If the arrangement gets dense you can ditch the side mic and still have a great mono acoustic guitar sound (telefunken ak47!)

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by chonchball

I love the trick where you use a Cascade Fathead (or any figure 8 ribbon, but the cascade is what i use) as your side mic, and a nice condensor for your middle (like a u87), and after the take is recorded/comped

Haha how do you do M-S without doing this trick?

[Vogon]

He may be refering to taking advantage of the widely differing responses of the two mics as being the "trick"(?).

[leaper]

I'm also a regular MS ambient drumkit dude.
Quite often AKG 414's. Sometimes STC ribbon as the sides.
Last time it was a pair of vintage C12's.
Sometimes the full MS glory might not end up in the final mix, in which case the mid mic usually does.

[loujudson]

Not studio but live I use an MS mic (Shure VP-88) as overhead, for its simplicity and ease of use - but mostly in room where drums can go without micing abyway. It gives me a flexible live recording, and add spaciousnes to the PA sound as well.

The VP-88 is not the best MS mic in the world but it does a good job for live sound and live recording when you want a subtle minimal micing setup.

L

[chonchball]

Originally Posted by Mayor999

Haha how do you do M-S without doing this trick?

yeah, that and using the response of the figure 8 as the sound passes on the sides of it, copying the signal, flipping, and panning to get your stereo image, because if you didn't do it this way (which is a little bit more of a process) you can also set up your sides by two different (preferably a matched pair) facing opposite directions and panned out to the sides for your side setup instead of using a copy of one fig8 mic and flipping the phase

[casey_outlaw]

M/S as room mics for drums here too. Mid is the Red Type A with the B6 capsule, and the side is a Cascade Fathead. I really dig the stereo width.

[starfighter]

I do M/S for room all the time to...

Never liked it much for overheads, but love it for drums as a far room...
The reflections hitting the wall and going into the sides (ie. the sort of less focused on the source stereo image than with an XY) to makes the room sound a bit bigger than it actually is...

There's no phase issues and actually using two different mics is cool...

Mrten

[Sk106]

It seems there are some moles around who are using M/S after all. Great to hear and learn from people's experiences of it.

Originally Posted by Mayor999

M/S doesn't seem to give me as wide of a stereo image as I can get with a good omni AB setup in a great room. The panning of where the hat & floor tom ends up is not "true".

Just so I understand this right: You say the position of left & right things (hats and floortom) doesn’t end up true. This must mean that to position the close miced stems - of hats and floortom - right on top of where they are in the MS stereo image, you'd have to position them a bit too close to the center for your taste. It seems that this would work, that the stereo image wouldn’t necessarily be 100% wide, but it would work. But you still prefer a wider stereo image than what MS usually gives you to work with? is this what you mean by "not true"? and if so, would raising the figure 8 mic - to widen the stereo image to your liking - cause a skewed stereo image or phase overshoot?

[Vogon]

M/S doesn't give you a time/phase discrepancy between the diaphragms, spaced pairs will sound more "dramatic" in that respect.

The image positioning *should* actually be accurate though, more accurate in many instances.

[Nishmaster]

M/S is by far my preferred distant stereo method. It ends up being a little cumbersome for room mics on electric guitar, but for instruments that will be a single stereo element, such as drums, piano, occasionally acoustic guitar, it's fantastic as a distant pair.

It really allows you to choose the width of the resultant sound. A trick I occasionally employ is to narrow the M/S drum room pair during verses and then widen them up during choruses. Subtle, but effective.

[Ca$h Marty]

Originally Posted by Nishmaster

It really allows you to choose the width of the resultant sound. A trick I occasionally employ is to narrow the M/S drum room pair during verses and then widen them up during choruses. Subtle, but effective.

Thats a cool idea, I usually bounce the tracks into one stereo file (after decoding) but automating the spread I will have to try......

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by Sk106

It seems there are some moles around who are using M/S after all. Great to hear and learn from people's experiences of it.
Just so I understand this right: You say the position of left & right things (hats and floortom) doesn’t end up true. This must mean that to position the close miced stems - of hats and floortom - right on top of where they are in the MS stereo image, you'd have to position them a bit too close to the center for your taste. It seems that this would work, that the stereo image wouldn’t necessarily be 100% wide, but it would work. But you still prefer a wider stereo image than what MS usually gives you to work with? is this what you mean by "not true"? and if so, would raising the figure 8 mic - to widen the stereo image to your liking - cause a skewed stereo image or phase overshoot?

True is probably a very wrong way to describe it. My bad... I like the the floor tom to be in ONLY one side of the stereo image ( of course this is not absolutely possible with ANY micing configuration!)

I feel can get much closer to that effect with a wide AB spaced pair than with mid side.

For rock/pop stuff M-S overheads just don't cut it for me as well as XY or spaced pair does.....

Personal taste.

The MAIN reason why I prefer M-S to a lot of other stereo mic techniques is that I can EASILY throw away the sides and have a nice mono signal when the mix gets a little hairy.

[Kenny M]

Since I bought a 251E a couple of years ago I naturally try to use it on everything I can. I've used it a lot as a Mono front of kit mic and just recently tried MS after reading an Albini article who sometimes will use a stereo mic or MS setup in front of the kit. I've been using it with a 414 TLII for the figure 8 mic. I position them about 4 feet high and maybe 5 or 6 feet in front of the kit.

Gotta say the results have been pretty phenomenal. Just pulling up the faders on these two mics is an incredible drum sound by itself. Everyone in the room always thinks it's the finished drum sound and freaks when I tell them it's only the two mics. I do have to say however that it's a great sounding old Gretsch kit in a great sounding room being played by a world class drummer. Hard to screw up IMO.

As someone said, the width is a little narrower so I've been using another pair of room mics to widen things up as needed. Big fan now of MS.