Engineering school graduates - the future?

[Jules]

Here is a photo I took (with my phone) last week of a London bus passing through my area. I have seen the ad several time now...

It shows a student at a small mixing desk.

I was surprised at how mainstream (on a London bus) the ad was...

Is recording engineering a growth area?

Getting bigger & bigger?

[FormulaReed]

I don't think that engineering is a growth area but I do think that engineering schools are.

There is a recording school in every large city in the USA but studios large enough to employ people are closing...

Reed

[Billster]

I presume that the willingness for the kids to learn engineering in a school is growing, since "cd-quality" production environments are getting cheaper every month plus the opportunity to produce ones own music is becoming noticed in a broader public. A while ago a mainstream computermag in Germany was teaching audio engineering skills (at an entry level of course, but anyway...).

At the same time it´s getting harder to make a living out of audio engineering for the very same reason. Decreasing sales because of music stealing don´t help either. Strange times. I´ll go rob a bank now...gotta get that CS Spider

Bill

[Jules]

In Groundhog Day (the movie) - the Bill Murray character burst out laughing when his producer told him she did her university degree in French Literature.... he thought it was a useless topic to study..

Are recording schools selling unrealistic dreams?

People tell me half the attendees just want to learn how to record their own stuff better..

That's not a crime is it?

[djui5]

Originally Posted by Jules

Are recording schools selling unrealistic dreams?

People tell me half the attendees just want to learn how to record their own stuff better..

That's not a crime is it?

They're not selling un-realistic dreams. I'd never been in a studio before attending and seem to be doing ok since graduation. It's all what you make of it...

Going to school to learn how to record your own stuff better is great if you got the $$ for it. I went with some guys who were doing just that, and I respect them for it.

Recording schools have also become quite a big business...look at SAE buying Neve...f'n amazing.

[Billster]

Of course not. They can do whatever they want with their money. During my time teaching at SAE I met a lot of students, who want a career in our business, though.

Bill

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by djui5

They're not selling un-realistic dreams. I'd never been in a studio before attending and seem to be doing ok since graduation. It's all what you make of it...

Ok.

So why'd you go to a recording school?

I went for a year and dropped out when I realized that getting a degree wasn't going to do anything for me. After dropping out I never looked back.

I do think some of the schools are selling un-realistic dreams, look at how many of them offer "job-placement" services that are really nothing more then a list of studios to call for a job and maybe some advice on how to put a resume together.

There are far more people graduating these programs then there are jobs in the music recording game. I don't know what post, or sound design for games or any of those other fields are like but I'd assume it's pretty similar. And that, to me...is selling an un-realistic dream.

But is it any different then a standard college?

[Stixxs]

I think it's like studying music, most wind up going into sales or teaching...with the occasional gig on the weekends.

The "graduates" from Full Sail and ARTI that I personally know locally, aren't fulfilling their dreams...yet.

[Gregg Sartiano]

In L.A. the L.A. Weekly (big free music & culture tabloid) was stuffed with the color brochure for one of the L.A. recording schools. I was on Sunset Strip and saw one on the pavement -- yesterday's litter. I didn't know what it was, but I recognized the fader from far away. Y'know, it's funny...they use the 'big' console thing as a come-on.

I've said it before -- these schools are big business, no doubt about it. That's not to say that the right individual could/couldn't use it as a springboard for a great career. The point I'm making is that they're selling a product 100% -- same deal as the record companies these days vs. the old days -- it's one thing to have bottom line considerations within a strategy based on long-term growth and quality, it's another thing entirely to see a business opportunity and jump into the fray to make a few bucks.

[GPl]

We need more doctors...........

[max cooper]

If one or two people go to recording school who were gonna be lawyers otherwise, it's worth it.

[pan60]

those who have the drive will succeed, those who don't won't, with or without school.
with that said, it is much easier to make a wheel then to invent one.

[grahluk]

Originally Posted by max cooper

If one or two people go to recording school who were gonna be lawyers otherwise, it's worth it.

Now THAT"s funny!

This issue rankles me in particular. It's the same here in NYC. You can find advertisements on busses, subways, and the local newsrags. All with smiling fresh faces leaning over a large console or looking up from a PT display. The advertising is along the lines of "do what you love", "exciting career in the music industry", etc, etc. This is all the same time that folks I know who have serious skills and have been fixtures here look for the few bones lying around or move on into other vocations as many prospects dwindle. I sometimes feel like the guy in the old silent black and white comedy where the side of a house falls over as if to crush him but he's standing where the single open window is located and avoids being flattened. There's one of these schools right around the corner from my studio. I'll walk by it at lunch to see all the students standing outside having a smoke/lunch break. They're easy to spot. You see many with large headphones draped around their necks, carrying backpacks, and all enthusiastically talking the game. You can see the dreams in their eyes of being big time (usually hip hip) producers and engineers. When it strikes me as black humor I'll walk by and to a friend with me go "*cough* no jobs *cough*" Other times it makes me a bit sad. I believe what I've heard that some places give no illusions as to their prospects. Some others put up a good front. Same probably goes for the students. A DJ friend of a friend ended up going to one of these schools. I asked why. She said she had no intention of trying to get a job out of it. She was just a DJ that wanted to get her feet wet and have a foundation for making her own music. I imagine this may be a common idea. Many look as if they're banking on their own entrepreneural instincts rather than looking for a gig. All the same I feel these schools are completely irrelevant. I think of our industry more of a trade than a profession. One that is better served with apprenticeships under previous generations than one where you are going to get a diploma that will place you on the bottom rung of some career ladder. That's how it's worked for a good long time until now. Recording schools? Didn't have any (hardly) when I was a youth. I went to school for electrical engineering the rest was that info applied towards my chosen application of that. AFAIK before these schools the ranks were filled with those from a technical background. Doesn't some of our most beloved gear come from the old broadcasting companies and garage radio operators/tinkerers? Yeah much of the workflow and arenas of production have changed but I feel our sector would be better served with some other sort of formal technical training combined with apprenticeships. I would much rather hire an assistant with some education in computer science that maybe plays an instrument or DJ's as a hobby than a minted audio school graduate. As for those that just want to jump in and make music. For the price of a school a person can get a prosumer rig and any number of the vast array of books on audio related theory and technology. That, motivation, and a group of friends into making music may teach them more. At the same time they will be developing the other skills you can't learn academically. How to handle people, time, and the technology. Learn by doing. Whether it's on your own or under the guidance of someone that's been doing it for awhile. Rant over. I'll end it with a paraphrase of something Frank Zappa said about school. "drop out, grow a pair, and do something in the world"

[Blitztone]

Many, many, U.S. trade and technical schools are big businesses. In general, the pitch is that they will "prepare you for a career, much faster than college". And there are many anecdotal examples of people who studied electronics at DeVry, or commercial art at one of the Art Institutes and went on to do well for themselves. Sadly, the vast majority do not.

I have seen a very similar story for Full Sail-type graduates, but there's another twist. These schools, much like "Guitar Institute of Technology" and many culinary schools seem to attract kids whose parents insist they go to school SOMEWHERE. So the kids go somewhere that looks cool/fun/easy and everybody's happy. I'm not being judgemental here, many of my friends have done such things.

My personal experience includes a vocational degree in commercial art, a community college electronics degree and after I finally got off my butt, bachelors and masters degrees in electrical engineering. Guess which one pays the bills?

[djui5]

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

Ok.

So why'd you go to a recording school?

I went to learn how to use the gear. I went to learn things I knew nothing about. I learned a lot while attending Full Sail. I got to work on some of the greatest consoles in this industry. I also learned about MIDI and things of that sort. I learned a tiny bit about soldering and live sound. I learned about resume building presentation. I learned a lot.
What I learned the most was what I wanted to do for the rest of my life...and that's be a Recording/Mix Engineer. The school didn't teach me everything. They never said they would. But they tought me enough.
I also couldn't have got the internship at Transcontinential studios without my degree.

Sure....I could have moved to LA and begged for an internship at some studio and learned over the cours of a few years that way, but I chose to attend school. I learned a lot, really fast. Also never being in a studio before, it allowed me to get comfortable with the environment without worrying about "stepping on glass".

But is it any different then a standard college?

Nope......

[BruceTheProduce]

I graduated from Harris Institute ( an Audio Engineering school in Toronto CA ) about a year ago. Honestly, I don't think they are selling "un-realistic dreams". they actually told me from the get go. " You have to understand that this is a hard business to get into and there may be slim posibilities for getting a job when you are done" and they asked me " do you still want to enroll?" and Said yes. I had a great time at school, I learned the basics of what I needed to learn and I'm on trends of opening a post facility. I know i'm not going to make millions, and I am not expencting them. I know there are a lot of competitors but this is what I wanna do. Its art blended with technology. there are more things to do than just recording albums. (don't get me wrong If could, I'd only do that) But you gotta open your minds to all the new media posibilities in which audio is involved.

My 2 cents

[Peter Morrison]

I just wanted to throw some thoughts in everyones direction, and see what gets thrown back.

I am a Junior year student at Ithaca College, it is at the southern tip of the Finger-lakes in NY. I am getting a Bachelors of Music in Sound Recording Technology, Though I know this isn't going to give me a golden ticket into the industry, I do feel it is preparing me to at least put my foot in the door.

I work closely with a very famous engineer (I wont drop names, but YOU KNOW HIS WORK) and I am in the middle of a classical music production that is going to be released by the college to showcase some award winning compositions.

I am (now) a classically trained singer, with all the theory and history education I could ever want.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that with my "well rounded" education, with a secondary focus, I feel I have a fighting chance.

Now, for those of you who have worked with 4-year degree educated engineers. Where do they fall, how do you feel they fall in compared to the tech school engineers, obviously there are great engineers from both sides, but what are your general experiences?

Peter

[AustinAaron]

I was already a full time DJ with a club record on the charts when I went to recording school. I thought it was a good deal because I wanted the studio time.

What I learned changed my life. I really feel like I have a much clearer direction for my career based on what I learned technically. I already had the ears, and that is something your not going to get at a school.

One thing that I think all these schools over state is the "job placement" part. Nobody gets placed in a job, nobody.

I've gotten a few hookups that A: I only got because I was not that green and B: I turned them into hookups myself.

[hociman]

Originally Posted by Jules

Is recording engineering a growth area?

Growth as in business growth? Only in post. Growth as in growing as an individual? Certainly.

Originally Posted by Jules

Getting bigger & bigger?

No. Budgets are getting smaller and smaller. I think its getting more diluted with smaller studios and studios that are partnered with or a division of some other entity. In terms of the job to person ratio, it is super-saturated.

Originally Posted by FormulaReed

I don't think that engineering is a growth area but I do think that engineering schools are. There is a recording school in every large city in the USA but studios large enough to employ people are closing...

What he said.

Originally Posted by Jules

Are recording schools selling unrealistic dreams?

In this context, selling is a synonym for marketing. With that clarified, some schools are selling (read - marketing) unrealistic dreams. At the risk of biting the hand that will feed gearslutz (literally) at AES, I believe that SAE has to be put in that category (I wonder if Jules will censor this?).

People tell me half the attendees just want to learn how to record their own stuff better.. That's not a crime is it?

No, but is it worth it?

Originally Posted by djui5

It's all what you make of it...

What he said.

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

So why'd you go to a recording school?

You had to ask? stike
My father's first computer was a Mac SE (it still runs!), and he bought copies of Performer and Finale. I thought it was so cool to notate music and have a computer play it back. He also had a free subscription to EM because he was a teacher, but he never really read it, so I did. I still have the December 1993 issue (Marshall Crenshaw was featured in it).

In 1995-96, I did something with Handel's "Water Music" in Finale. I can't remember if I entered it and transposed it or if there were errors in the score that I corrected. Either way, I found out about a program at Lebanon Valley College in PA for recording that was offered that summer (a one week offering for high school juniors). I applied, and was accepted with 11 other individuals. The gent that ran it was impressed with what I did with Finale, which got me in. We did a recording of a drum circle that was improvised and amazing. I was in the control room for most of it, and at the end of this week I knew I wanted to do this as a profession.

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

I do think some of the schools are selling un-realistic dreams, look at how many of them offer "job-placement" services that are really nothing more then a list of studios to call for a job and maybe some advice on how to put a resume together.

Indeed.

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

There are far more people graduating these programs then there are jobs in the music recording game.

Is there an echo in here?

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

I don't know what post, or sound design for games or any of those other fields are like but I'd assume it's pretty similar.

Post is better now. Whether that will remain the case is unknown.

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

But is it any different then a standard college?

A recording school is not a standard college. I went to a standard college. It is my opinion that someone that attended a standard college is more valuable.

Originally Posted by grahluk

It's the same here in NYC. You can find advertisements on busses, subways, and the local newsrags. All with smiling fresh faces leaning over a large console or looking up from a PT display. The advertising is along the lines of "do what you love", "exciting career in the music industry", etc, etc.

What was that I said about the word marketing earlier?

Originally Posted by grahluk

All the same I feel these schools are completely irrelevant.

It appears that grahluk and I share the same sentiment.

Originally Posted by grahluk

I went to school for electrical engineering the rest was that info applied towards my chosen application of that.

My degree is not in E.E., but I did have to take several E.E. classes. Do the recording schools offer such classes?

Originally Posted by grahluk

I would much rather hire an assistant with some education in computer science that maybe plays an instrument or DJ's as a hobby than a minted audio school graduate.

I took a semester of C++, know the basics of Flash, and my thesis was an 8x2 mixer in Max/MSP. I graduated from a standard university. Does that fit your mold?

Originally Posted by djui5

I got to work on some of the greatest consoles in this industry.

I think it is more valuable if you can apply knowledge to any console. The largest console I ever used was an Amek BIG by Langley, but I use O2Rs everyday. I haven't met anyone yet that was enamored by my experience with the BIG.

Originally Posted by djui5

What I learned the most was what I wanted to do for the rest of my life...and that's be a Recording/Mix Engineer. The school didn't teach me everything. They never said they would. But they tought me enough.

It seems djui5 and I got a bit of the same from two different places.

Originally Posted by BruceTheProduce

they actually told me from the get go. " You have to understand that this is a hard business to get into and there may be slim posibilities for getting a job when you are done"

I did the same thing once. I fielded parents' questions about the program I was in at the time, and made it clear that this wasn't a field you get into for the $.

Originally Posted by Peter Morrison

I am getting a Bachelors of Music in Sound Recording Technology, Though I know this isn't going to give me a golden ticket into the industry, I do feel it is preparing me to at least put my foot in the door.

If the program is worthy, yes it is.

Originally Posted by Peter Morrison

I am (now) a classically trained singer, with all the theory and history education I could ever want.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that with my "well rounded" education, with a secondary focus, I feel I have a fighting chance.

This is what you get with a standard university education.

My education? B.M. Summa cum Laude with University Honors, Music Production and Technology, University of Hartford, 2001
M.M., Music Technology, NYU 2004
I also serve as the Treasurer for the NY section of the AES, and have been employed in post for over 4 years. If you use Pro Tools TDM v6.4.1, you'll see my name in the credits scroll.

[six_wax]

Let's see...

- Had access to a number of seasoned, veteran engineers whose job it was to answer my questions all day
- Had to learn to work in about a dozen different rooms
- Got to gain a sh*tload of experience actually working on real projects (instead of just getting people coffee)
- Got to prove to myself that this really is what I want to be doing, and that I actually do have a knack for it
- Cultivated a network of hundreds of active musicians... (which started yeilding paying gigs before I even finished the program)

Sure, I'll be paying it off for the rest of my natural life... but at the moment it feels like it was a good deal.

[Jose Mrochek]

And proud!!!!! : )

[simonv]

A person once told me: "Instead of spending 15 000$" to go to one of those schools, pay a well known engineer 3000$ to follow him around for a month. And then spend the rest on gear".

And after a few years, this still makes a lot of sense to me.

[Jose Mrochek]

Originally Posted by simvez

A person once told me: "Instead of spending 15 000$" to go to one of those schools, pay a well known engineer 3000$ to follow him around for a month. And then spend the rest on gear".

And after a few years, this still makes a lot of sense to me.

The trick question is.. what´s more important .. building a network of people who will help you get places, or locking yourself up in a small studio where all you will do is record lousy musicians for a long long time ?

I personaly think it´s better to know people when you are starting off. And worry about recording techniques later on.

And school is a great place to network. And Fullsail´s placement department is top notch whatever anyone here thinks.

I would have not in a million years know the people I know now if it wasn´t for fullsail. Definetly my best year ever, would do it again, and again and again.

GS is awesome to. And free : )

[BobRick]

I think people have just cracked on to the Tom Misner world domination scheme of feeding off the hopes, dreams and aspirations of todays youth.


Either that or the industry has narrowed so much that once high earning engineers have started opening audio engineering schools to maintain a high income.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by simvez

A person once told me: "Instead of spending 15 000$" to go to one of those schools, pay a well known engineer 3000$ to follow him around for a month. And then spend the rest on gear".

And after a few years, this still makes a lot of sense to me.

Apprenticeships are still the best way to learn.

This is a trade and a service industry. We're not that much different then carpenters, electricians or mechanics.

I went to college gunning for a bachelor in music performance & production because my parents wanted me to go to college...not really because I wanted to go. During the second half of my year at school I got to know the head of the audio department and I started assisting him on his sessions and he directed me to a studio (48-track Neve room) that I could intern at over the summer. I was a runner for a while and when the first engineer quit I got his job! Pretty obviously, I never went back to school in the fall.

I was working in a room with great engineers & producers making real records, and that was way a more valuable education then school. I don’t want to name drop too much or anything but Andy Wallace had reels stored in the basement, and no…I didn’t get to work with him, though I did rent him a PA once LOL.

As a snot-nosed 18 year old punk I started picking things up from these great architects of records. I not only learned how to build a record but session etiquette, how to deal with peoples fragile and/or overbuilt egos and deal with the A&R mooks. Things like what to listen for, how to place microphones, how to repair or fudge around broken gear without calling the artists attention to the problem…not to mention the general stuff like being able to ask a bajillion questions when the day was over and all the stuff I learned from taking their recall notes, normalling the console, pulling the patchbay etc. Those are things that I probably wouldn’t have learned in school, nor would I have learned or been exposed to any of it if I was working on my own. But most of all, I’m glad that I got exposed to good sounding rooms and equipment from the beginning…it gave me a higher standard to reach for when I finally opened my own shop.

Yeah…apprenticeships are still the best way to go, at least for music recording.

Hell of a lot cheaper then college too.

[Diablo]

My little recording studio that I was a partner in hired two engineers straight out of a recording school. Basically, we only paid them when they worked and they were the 2nd and third call engineers. They got between $10 and $20 an hour (our avg rate is $40 hour). We hoped that they would go out and bring in some business by meeting bands and such, but they never did and eventually we had to let them go.

We would love to find guys that wanted to go to clubs every night and meet bands and get them to record or guys that would take care of the studio like it was their own, but no such luck.

Another thing was that they weren't very good at using Pro Tools, I don't know what the schools are teaching, but one ProTools class doesn't cut it.

Just my observations...

[John Suitcase]

I took a few classes at community college years ago, and just learned mostly by recording my band, then helping out at a friend's studio (for free). Nowadays, I'm doing alright, and pretty happy with the way things are going.

On another note, almost every band I record has at least one recording school graduate, none of whom are working in the industry, except as musicians.

I remember the early 90's when everyone was going into video production and commercial art. It's the same with recording schools. I think that for the right person, with a passion for the work, they can be a great opportunity. But for the vast majority, they're just selling the dream.

I suppose the same would be true of auto mechanic schools, refrigeration, etc, except that those industries aren't full of people willing to do the work for free.

To be successful, I think you have to love it intrinsically, be very good, and not be afraid to work and take risks. These are good rules of thumb for any business, but especially for something as competitive as music.

[aussie_techie]

oh the many things that can be said on both side of this argument ill start by quoting someone i have worked with who went to SAE who said the most usefull thing he learnt was how to roll a cable. even the basic things like rolling cables seems to be going out. so many student seem to be diving right into ProTools or logic or any other DAW without using a real analogue console first, they dont learn how a console works, signal flow or about inserts and sends and so they dont have a background to tranfer into the DAW enviroment.
as for using the right equipment, i dont see the point to use a Neve 88R for your first attempt but at the same time people need to learn their gear to get the right stuff i see so many people put their money into the wrong areas and then when they have spent it all they they end up buying crap to fill in the graps. many times ive seen a good system running into a behringer compressor and i just wonder why

im also seeing so many people want to record yet so few people wanting to go into live production, which is kinda good around here as some live venues have been closing because they just arnt making enough money but why dont people see it as an option. i also believe that people need to get a grounding in all forms of production, both live and studio and the majority of people are missing that. working on live shows i have leant alot that translates into the studio and vise versa. even here on GS when someone asks a question about a live situation and someone answers recomending studio gear that just wont fly live.

number one people need to learn the basics thats is the most important thing and often the basics are being skiped to get right into software. i believe watching a more experenced enginear work is a great way to learn and then trying things out on their own. hell just setting up a system for a bigger show will give students a better idea about how things work than sitting in a class room.

[Jules]

I don't mean this with any spin of sarcasm..

So someone is applying for a job at....Microsoft or Apple...or General Motors

With either of 3 university degrees..

1) French literature
2) Chemistry
3) Audio Engineering

Which would help the applicant secure the job the most..?

[aussie_techie]

Originally Posted by Jules

I don't mean this with any spin of sarcasm..

So someone is applying for a job at....Microsoft or Apple...or General Motors

With either of 3 university degrees..

1) French literature
2) Chemistry
3) Audio Engineering

Which would help the applicant secure the job the most..?

at MS or apple French literature as they could translate programs into french
at GM Chemistry, chemical makeup of fuel, possibly new fuel sources