Where am i going wrong?

[goldphinga]

Ok, i finished my album. I've rested my ears for a week before listening again.

I'm totally happy with the content and feel of my tracks and the mixes in terms of level balance, etc.

However!... I'm having trouble liking the overall sonic quality of the end result and its really frustrating me. My signal path is the following

avalon u5 di(keys and bass)>amek cb (main preamp,compression eq of instruments)>(now heres where it starts to go wrong) motu 828>mac G4 with logic 6>bounce to disk>final cd. hr824's are my monitors and i have a feeling they really hype the mids causing me to back off, though the whole mix usually sounds a little veilled to me.

Now i know the motu is a piece of **** but i dont use the gain on the pres of the motu at all. Its only used for conversion on the way in.

My mixes just sound too grainy, and if the motu plays no part on the way out then does that put the grainyness down to logics bounce function or is the grainyness on the way in caused by the motu the root of the quality problem?

Anyone had a similar experience with a similar setup? Insanity is looming......!

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by goldphinga

Ok, i finished my album. I've rested my ears for a week before listening again.

I'm totally happy with the content and feel of my tracks and the mixes in terms of level balance, etc.

However!... I'm having trouble liking the overall sonic quality of the end result and its really frustrating me. My signal path is the following

avalon u5 di(keys and bass)>amek cb (main preamp,compression eq of instruments)>(now heres where it starts to go wrong) motu 828>mac G4 with logic 6>bounce to disk>final cd. hr824's are my monitors and i have a feeling they really hype the mids causing me to back off, though the whole mix usually sounds a little veilled to me.

Now i know the motu is a piece of **** but i dont use the gain on the pres of the motu at all. Its only used for conversion on the way in.

My mixes just sound too grainy, and if the motu plays no part on the way out then does that put the grainyness down to logics bounce function or is the grainyness on the way in caused by the motu the root of the quality problem?

Anyone had a similar experience with a similar setup? Insanity is looming......!

Sorry to say it but the 828 is a shitty converter.

Grainyness going in mixed with logic plug ins equals digital mix form hell!!!

Oh the Horror!!!

It also sounds like you need to upgrade your monitoring system.

You should be able to hear the grainyness right away and make corrections accordingly.

Mackie HR824's work best at a midfield distance at least 5-6' back from the listener.

Add a sub and they become more even.

Add some sound anchor stands and you are getting there.

If you have them upclose you might as well forget it.

Also a Benchmark D/A is helpful.

[goldphinga]

Well you've hit the nail on the head! (i knew this was coming!)

I use the 824's as nearfields, i have no sub, but they are on heavy duty stands.
Was thinking of testing a pair of Adams out and maybe selling the 824's.

The 828 is going in the bin soon to make way for a rosetta 200 with firewire card.
I've used a few logic plugins (not that many) and know they aren't great. I've also used a fair amount of waves plugs as well. I really could do with a nice sidecar mixer.

I'm thinking the best option is to do all my eq'ing on the amek cib as its the best eq i got and then print back into logic in future. At the moment though i dont have the cpu power on my mac or the drive space to print everything back to the computer.I was gonna get a uad 1 card as well, and possibly a summing mixer such as the speck x sum.

This has been a real learning experience for me! I need to look at my bank account and see what i can really afford to notch the sound up to the level i'm after.

I'm gonna have to live with the sound for this album as there's not much i can do
save mixing the whole thing again without plugins. All the audio went through the 828 on the way in so it was set in stone at that point. I'm feeling pretty cheesed off now as the mixes and content are as i want, but its just this flippin grainy sound thats grating on me at the mo.

[warhead]

I use HR824's at about 4.5' away with no issues. Could be a room issue?

War

[thethrillfactor]

Originally Posted by goldphinga

Well you've hit the nail on the head! (i knew this was coming!)

I use the 824's as nearfields, i have no sub, but they are on heavy duty stands.
Was thinking of testing a pair of Adams out and maybe selling the 824's.

Yeah 824's just don't work that well as a nearfield.

You could use the roll off filters built in and make them respond more like NS10s' and sometimes that works.

Originally Posted by goldphinga

The 828 is going in the bin soon to make way for a rosetta 200 with firewire card.
I've used a few logic plugins (not that many) and know they aren't great. I've also used a fair amount of waves plugs as well. I really could do with a nice sidecar mixer.

Understood.

Originally Posted by goldphinga

I'm thinking the best option is to do all my eq'ing on the amek cib as its the best eq i got and then print back into logic in future. At the moment though i dont have the cpu power on my mac or the drive space to print everything back to the computer.I was gonna get a uad 1 card as well, and possibly a summing mixer such as the speck x sum. .

The only problem with your idea is you will have to go in and out of the 828 for the CIB tweaks.

Originally Posted by goldphinga

This has been a real learning experience for me! I need to look at my bank account and see what i can really afford to notch the sound up to the level i'm after..

We've all been there at one time or another.

Welcome to Gearslutz!!!

Originally Posted by goldphinga

I'm gonna have to live with the sound for this album as there's not much i can do
save mixing the whole thing again without plugins. All the audio went through the 828 on the way in so it was set in stone at that point. I'm feeling pretty cheesed off now as the mixes and content are as i want, but its just this flippin grainy sound thats grating on me at the mo.

This is where a great Guerilla mastering engineer can do wonders.

If your tracks are hot they are hot and with the right "sonic mastering massage" you can do wonders.

A guerilla mastering job is almost like next step mixing.

Problem is i am not sure if these kinda guys exist in the UK.

Here in the states they exist.

Good luck with it.

[goldphinga]

Hello everybody!

I dont believe it really to be a monitoring problem or a room problem.My mixes translate well but its just the motu has coloured the lot! Its so frustrating as everyone has commented on how good the mixes sound but i can do little to get away from the cotton wooliness that i can hear.

Its mainly having recorded the instruments through the motu which has given everything a none too pleasing sound that is now inherent in everything i recorded. The mackies are telling me stuff is grainy but there's little i can do with the gear i've got to remedy this. I'll have to live with it for this album and upgrade soon. Hopefully a decent mastering sesh will be able to pull a little more from the mixes,but these mixes are def as good as i can get on this system.

This is what i'm gonna do to sort the situation in the future:
-Get a mac G5 running logic 7
-Upgrade convertors to Apogee rosetta
-No longer use any logic plugins(particularly the eq's which are dog****),apart from the handful that sound ok.
-Get a decent cd recorder deck to put on the outs of the Apogee
-Try find a nice 16 channel mixer with nice pres and eq's for summing and analogness/separation. (recommendations please, it can't take up too much space as have a small room)

I'll probably have to do this in stages as funds allow.
Thanks for all advice so far......

[goldphinga]

Thanks!

[Berolzheimer]

Are you recording & mixing at 16 bit or 24? If 24, are you using a good dither to get it down to 16? when you do, are you levels as hot as possible without clipping the stereo bus?
I agree that a good mastering engineer can probably help, if all those other factors are in order. Be sure to output your mixes 24 bit for the ME.

[goldphinga]

All my bounces are at 24bit and dithered in logic. Theres a few different options for dithering in logic but have never really know which does what!

[gwailoh]

Before upgrading your gear, you might consider consulting with a skilled mastering engineer. Send him or her your best-sounding mix, explain what you like and dislike about it, and ask for detailed feedback re 1) what can mastering do to get you the sound you want; versus 2) what do you need to change in the mix. This shouldn't cost more than 1 hour of the ME's time, and you're likely to achieve a far superior result. Maybe without upgrading anything!

[Berolzheimer]

Originally Posted by goldphinga

All my bounces are at 24bit and dithered in logic. Theres a few different options for dithering in logic but have never really know which does what!

I don't know specifically about the different dithers in Logic, but as with just about anything I'd recommend that you try the various settings & see which you prefer- you might be surprised how much difference it makes.