Triggers & Samples vs. Real Kit for modern rock drums!

[jimcroisdale]

Hi all,

Currently, I'm using EZ Drummer for my drum sounds. Our band doesn't have a drummer as yet so we are just concentrating on writing and recording. I can play drums a bit, at least well enough to program realistic and achievable drum parts.

I was hoping to get access to a nice room and a real kit to do some better drum tracks and improve the quality of our sound. However, the more i read I realise that the quality of sound would be more likely to go down, with drums being as hard to record as they are.

So it got me thinking - with most drums in modern rock being quantized and sample replaced, might I just be better off getting a set of these 'rubber drums' and a good sample pack (SSD?) and going from there?

Given my situation and skill level, and being realistic about what I can achieve, might this be the best option? I can program the drums in a grid as usual, and when we do get a drummer, he can 'record' on the kit. We could even rehearse together at more friendly volume levels!

Cheers,

Jim

[Ben B]

One way to think of it is that if you record live drums, and then sample replace and quantize the performance, you might as well have used programmed drums in the first place -- especially if you don't think you can get a superior drum sound via traditional recording and mixing methods.

Nevertheless, it might be a good experience for you to get your feet wet with actual drum tracking. "Real" drums are potentially better sounding, though unless you have experience dealing with them, you'll probably revert back to your samples quickly.

Why don't you hire a more experienced engineer to record your drums, and perhaps mentor you in the process?

-Ben B

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Ben B

One way to think of it is that if you record live drums, and then sample replace and quantize the performance, you might as well have used programmed drums in the first place -- especially if you don't think you can get a superior drum sound via traditional recording and mixing methods.

I don't agree - individual HH hits for example, plus most modern drums are a blend of samples and (varying) real drums.

Maybe try playing a live HH/cymbals part on top of programmed kick/snare.

[machinated]

cymbals are always the giveaway of programmed drums, they are very hard to program in right.

even if you track a live kit and quantize/sample replace it will still sound a lot more realistic than programmed drums as you'll have beats that the drummer has actually played. just got to make sure you arent quantizing 100% and sample replacing with the same sample. do it tastefully and you can get the best of both

i prefer to edit drums just behind the grid, and keep it a bit random. just fix up little things like kicks coming in to early or timing problems. with samples, just use them to beef up the mic'ed sounds. a combination of mic'ed sounds and samples is usually what works out best.

[Ben B]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

I don't agree - individual HH hits for example, plus most modern drums are a blend of samples and (varying) real drums.

Maybe try playing a live HH/cymbals part on top of programmed kick/snare.

I fully acknowledge that, however my point is whether or not the OP would find this to be worth the difference, in light of the fact that he is insecure about his abilities to make a live drum recording work well for him.

If he plans to record live, then sample replace and quantize, it may not be worth the difference and trouble to him to have "realistic sounding high hats." For that matter, he could program the drums himself and just overdub the cymbals if he wanted to.

Don't get me wrong -- I am not advocating this as a general method of working. The question is whether or not it would be worth it for this particular person. If the drum session is abysmal, and it all depends on sample replacement and quantization, then it might not be worth it ("realistic high hats" notwithstanding). That's why I suggested hiring an experienced engineer to help him.

Sample augmentation is fine (I do it too!), but total replacement of all the drums with samples, in the name of having realistic high hats, doesn't seem to justify the trouble in this case.

-Ben B

[surflounge]

bit of a struggle to use noise-gates again on drums (like the '80s) because it pisses off drummers when their hits get cut off. But the mics need to isolate

[Aisle 6]

straight programed or sample replaced drums are very hard to glue together like a real kit with a bit of bleed through every mic. It works OK if you can use a real kit and blend the samples. I say OK because I am not a fan of sample replacement at all.

[Ben B]

Ya know, it kind of depends on the type of arrangement it is too. For example, take a song like "The Reason" by Hoobastank (which I hate). That, to me, is an example of a drum track that could easily have been pulled off with programming. There's not enough subtlety even within the cymbals and hats that couldn't be easily replicated with samples. Crashes are certainly no big deal, and one can use sample loops for the high hat patterns (as opposed to straight-up programming using one-shot high hat samples, which I agree sounds fake). For a track like that, I can't see why tracking a live drummer would necessarily make any difference at all.

Please understand that it doesn't mean that I like the sound, but I'm merely making the point that it doesn't always really matter. That song might as well have been done with sample loops and programming, but it was probably done with a real drummer, and subsequently quantized and sample-replaced.

-Ben B

[SANDS]

I use ezdrummer with a dm5 kit and the trigger i/o got it all brand new shipped to my front door for 299.00 from novamusic on ebay.

Being able to play the parts and actually hit pads instead of keys or small pads is great.

[pw2005]

You can imitate acoustics 100% with software if the E kit is set up right. If you are going to record acoustics,I would make sure youi have a good sounding room and good overheads to start. if you don't have those then even the cymbals will sound terrible.

Peter

[ryst]

Originally Posted by jimcroisdale

Hi all,

Currently, I'm using EZ Drummer for my drum sounds. Our band doesn't have a drummer as yet so we are just concentrating on writing and recording. I can play drums a bit, at least well enough to program realistic and achievable drum parts.

I was hoping to get access to a nice room and a real kit to do some better drum tracks and improve the quality of our sound. However, the more i read I realise that the quality of sound would be more likely to go down, with drums being as hard to record as they are.

So it got me thinking - with most drums in modern rock being quantized and sample replaced, might I just be better off getting a set of these 'rubber drums' and a good sample pack (SSD?) and going from there?

Given my situation and skill level, and being realistic about what I can achieve, might this be the best option? I can program the drums in a grid as usual, and when we do get a drummer, he can 'record' on the kit. We could even rehearse together at more friendly volume levels!

Cheers,

Jim

I think it depends on your long term goals. If you eventually plan on having a permanent drummer, then I would at least hire someone now for the recording until you find a permanent drummer. If you don't plan on getting a drummer soon then use that money and get SSD or Superior 2.

The rehearsal thing is interesting though. Eventually, when I get the money I'd like an electronic kit for my band and have the guitars and bass all run direct so we could practice pretty much anywhere and not worry about volume issues with neighbors.

[Flying_Dutchman]

Originally Posted by Fortman

Record real drums, blend triggers w/ kick and snare. WALA!!!

every song on the radio.

+1 that´s great if the drummer can hit and the kit is ok
nothing beats this imo

[Flying_Dutchman]

i got a td-20 kit, too and mostely all the libraries from 3rd party companies
everything is great and can do a good result
i like e-drums when i record young guys who can´t play 100%, i can quantize and do the drums,ok...
well, but nothing beats a real drum with some little helpers imo
cheers

[PlatinumSamples]

Our samples played on a Yamaha DTXtremeIII:

YouTube - Platinum Samples: Bobby Jarzombek playing Evil Drums for BFD

Rail

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Ben B

Ya know, it kind of depends on the type of arrangement it is too. For example, take a song like "The Reason" by Hoobastank (which I hate). That, to me, is an example of a drum track that could easily have been pulled off with programming. There's not enough subtlety even within the cymbals and hats that couldn't be easily replicated with samples. Crashes are certainly no big deal, and one can use sample loops for the high hat patterns (as opposed to straight-up programming using one-shot high hat samples, which I agree sounds fake). For a track like that, I can't see why tracking a live drummer would necessarily make any difference at all.

Please understand that it doesn't mean that I like the sound, but I'm merely making the point that it doesn't always really matter. That song might as well have been done with sample loops and programming, but it was probably done with a real drummer, and subsequently quantized and sample-replaced.

-Ben B

That's unfortunately a crap example - you're right the drums are leaden and might as well be programmed there! wouldn't be surprised if sections are looped/maybe even 100% programmed.

I wasn't advocating recording an entire kit as it happens - more the idea of totally programming kick/snare/toms, and overdubbing a live hat part, then live cymbals. Can make a big big difference to the feel.

[Never1]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

I wasn't advocating recording an entire kit as it happens - more the idea of totally programming kick/snare/toms, and overdubbing a live hat part, then live cymbals. Can make a big big difference to the feel.

I did exactly that in my earlier engineering days in my home studio and it worked out pretty well. A heck of a lot more realistic then full on programmed. Hi hats and Cymbals always give it away.

With today's sample libraries being so good, a good programmer can be a dangerous guy.

I love real kits and I also love over the top sample replaced kits and can appreciate a well programmed drum machine. They all have their place and with regards to samples vs. real, I don't mind going either route if the production demands it.

Hard to get Breaking Benjamin, when the kit sounds like cardboard boxes and duct tape. Unfortunately, a lot of amateur kits sound exactly like that.

But, given a choice, give me real kit in great room with great drummer any day of the week.

[Ben B]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

That's unfortunately a crap example - you're right the drums are leaden and might as well be programmed there! wouldn't be surprised if sections are looped/maybe even 100% programmed.

I wasn't advocating recording an entire kit as it happens - more the idea of totally programming kick/snare/toms, and overdubbing a live hat part, then live cymbals. Can make a big big difference to the feel.

Why is it a crap example? The point I was making is that in certain contexts, it wouldn't matter much. As I indicated, it doesn't mean that I like it.

-Ben B

[megl]

Originally Posted by PlatinumSamples

Our samples played on a Yamaha DTXtremeIII:

YouTube - Platinum Samples: Bobby Jarzombek playing Evil Drums for BFD

Rail

Hey Rail - when is the Superior version released?

/megl

[Ghetto]

Why not work on expanding your recording skill a little bit? I have spent many days trying different mic positions, drums, patterns, compression and EQ on my drums, not to mention mixing techniques and tricks! I disagree that you need samples to compete with modern drum sounds.. its all terribly lame IMO.

Its the "autotune" of drum sounds. Another way for engineers to get lazier...

I think you will be happier in the end knowing that you physically recorded and brought your song to life!

[beau]

Originally Posted by Ghetto

Why not work on expanding your recording skill a little bit? I have spent many days trying different mic positions, drums, patterns, compression and EQ on my drums, not to mention mixing techniques and tricks! I disagree that you need samples to compete with modern drum sounds.. its all terribly lame IMO.

Its the "autotune" of drum sounds. Another way for engineers to get lazier...

agreed... and kudos to you for actually engineering!!!!

beau

[PlatinumSamples]

Originally Posted by megl

Hey Rail - when is the Superior version released?

/megl

We're on schedule for a December release... as long as the manufacturers don't let us down.

Thanks,

Rail

[CGBMike]

Hey
I posted this before, but this is my friend's attempt with using sampled drums but real hats and cymbals. He's using Steven Slate drums, thought you may want to check it out.

YouTube - Recording and triggering drums using real cymbals and MIDI drum pads

As you can probably hear, the room sound (or lack of room sound) on the drums contrasts with the hats and cymbals, but its pretty passable and sounds good in a mix.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Ben B

Why is it a crap example? The point I was making is that in certain contexts, it wouldn't matter much. As I indicated, it doesn't mean that I like it.

-Ben B

Well, that song isn't something to aspire to imitate - it's a very simple, leaden drum part with little happening, and may well be one or two looped bars for the most part.

Indeed, if you're determined to recreate it, it possibly wouldn't matter if you recorded a live kit and BD'd/sample replaced, programmed with live hats, or totally programmed. It'd still sound like a fake sounding bag of arse - just like the original.

Now if you want to record GOOD sounding, realistic songs on a very low budget in a similar style, programmed drums and live cymbals could be the way to go.

I'm exaggerating I know, but the principle remains. I'd hope the OP is aiming high, not mediocre.

[Ben B]

Exactly my point -- it depends on the sound you're after. If you want that sterile, quantized, sample-replaced type of thing, then it doesn't matter very much!

-Ben B

[DeBasement]

Originally Posted by PlatinumSamples

Our samples played on a Yamaha DTXtremeIII:

YouTube - Platinum Samples: Bobby Jarzombek playing Evil Drums for BFD

Rail

Wow. And that is exactly why I prefer real drums....

Within the first five seconds I was like... "who let the robot loose on the drumulator?"

I know there are some people who love this kind of stuff. Me, I'm a drummer and this barely qualifies as music to me. THough the guy does have fast feet. I guess that's worth something... But I'd love to hear him play a real kit.

Samples are great though. Quality of sampling is high, and the library is first class - no mistake. Just doesn't sound anything like real drums to me. Apologies.

[JTJacobson]

Originally Posted by Fortman

Record real drums, blend triggers w/ kick and snare. WALA!!!

every song on the radio.

I'll second that.

[sweetmojo]

Originally Posted by DeBasement

Wow. And that is exactly why I prefer real drums....

Within the first five seconds I was like... "who let the robot loose on the drumulator?"

I know there are some people who love this kind of stuff. Me, I'm a drummer and this barely qualifies as music to me. THough the guy does have fast feet. I guess that's worth something... But I'd love to hear him play a real kit.

Samples are great though. Quality of sampling is high, and the library is first class - no mistake. Just doesn't sound anything like real drums to me. Apologies.

Ha ha!!! I'm totally with you. But, the funny thing here is that he is not a good example to prove this point at all. He sounds like this with a real set as well!!!! Ha ha!!!! Looove him for metal though, but he is a "math" drummer!

[Ben B]

Originally Posted by sweetmojo

Ha ha!!! I'm totally with you. But, the funny thing here is that he is not a good example to prove this point at all. He sounds like this with a real set as well!!!! Ha ha!!!! Looove him for metal though, but he is a "math" drummer!

Hahahaha... "Math drummer." Great expression!


-Ben B

[PlatinumSamples]

Bobby playing a live kit:

MetalGodShop.com - The Official Rob Halford Merchandise Store

Rail

[Tomer1]

I strongly belive in mixing well recorded drums with samples.