Out of tune vocals on huge hits

[Happy Musicfan]

Originally Posted by character

I just don't understand such a strict purist approach to vocals, when accompanying music that is electronically-generated from the start. The entire soundscape is synthesized and non-human. Why does the authenticity of vocals matter so much when the same approach is not applied to instruments?

Again, if you don't value or appreciate natural sounding vocals, that's your right and imo, your loss. It's about individualistic expressivity and radical varieties of vocal timbre/nuances/styles across a diverse population of singers. Auto-Tune reduces that and creates more *sameness* via a hyper-mechanical software program.

And again, no one is demanding that all instruments in a given song be either totally organic or totally inorganic. That's an unbalanced view.

[12ax7]

.[/B][/B]

This thread has wandered.

I'm not sure a lot of people really understand what "out of tune" really means.

I would suggest a reading of the following page before proceeding:

Wikipedia entry for "Harmonic Seventh Chord"

.

[norman]

today on the radio i heard bob weir singing sugar magnolia. a serious blue ribbon contender for the most all over the place vocal in pop history award and whoever is singing the harmony is simply in a class by himself. the dj said it was from the new europe 72 boxed set.

[jimcasy786]

Originally Posted by character

I just don't understand such a strict purist approach to vocals, when accompanying music that is electronically-generated from the start. The entire soundscape is synthesized and non-human. Why does the authenticity of vocals matter so much when the same approach is not applied to instruments?

Oh man, that's just it! A synthetic soundscape serves as a kind of a alembic for a sometimes broken, sometimes imperfect voice that makes it all the more human and captivating. That is why I love Joy Division so much. Ian Curtis' voice is all over the place and yet that band along with his voice truly captured the drudgery of Manchester in all its incongruent despair. They really sounded like the city.

I think, more so now than ever, we're trying to find something genuine and human to connect to amid the onslaught of machines and the isolation and ennui that goes along with it . . . shiz, look at this forum! hahaha

[ontariomaximus]

Originally Posted by 12ax7

.[/B][/B]

This thread has wandered.

I'm not sure a lot of people really understand what "out of tune" really means.

I would suggest a reading of the following page before proceeding:

Wikipedia entry for "Harmonic Seventh Chord"

.

That reinforces the idea that every tone does NOT have to be locked into the 12 tones. Innaresting.

[12ax7]

Originally Posted by ontariomaximus

That reinforces the idea that every tone does have to be locked into the 12 tones. Innaresting.

...In other words, "perfect" tuning ...ISN'T!

.

[The Listener]

That is not "flawed", that is sexy and cool.

Relax your western ears, our standard is artificial, natural perfect pitch sounds out of tune to us. And also - quarter tones can sound so good (in Persian classical, Turkish classical, Indonesian gamelan, Wendy Carlos' "Beauty in the Beast", etc.)

Freddy was an amazing singer and perfectionist - everything that was recorded should be as it is.

Some of your conclusions are cool to me, but you could also question your perception what is perfect and what is "flat" to you in the first place.

They didn't accidentally leave it in - it sounded good to all involved in the process - and the masses who liked those songs.

But there are some hits and famous songs that indeed have very out of tune singing - Cure come to mind first, Sex Pistols, too - but that is again a stylistic choice, maybe done out of neccesity, but it sounded cool to many people.

Originally Posted by zulusound

I was driving today and Billy Idol's "White Wedding" came on the radio. Now this is a very pitchy vocal performance, a few notes are close to a 1/4 pitch flat, one of the "START AGAAAAAAIIIIN"'s ... I was thinking how refreshing it was that a flawed performance (probably not an overly comped track) was still being played on the radio, probably not to be done again. Current stuff would either be autotuned or comped to the point of near "perfection".

Another crazy flat pitch is in Queen's "Somebody to Love", when the whole song and the whole huge chorus stops at 3:51, Freddie's big solo, that D# is really flat to my ears, up until the very last millisecond of the falsetto "tooooo". Don't get me wrong, I am a HUGE Queen fan and think FM is one of the greatest ever.. But.. did no-one hear this? I realize it's a stylistic blues slide, but it sounds sour. In some ways I think it's cool, maybe Freddie just said- no that's my performance. I'm done. Freddie rules. But that note is naked and flat as can be. Maybe they needed RTB in the room on that one (Queen produced this record). But.. performance over accuracy is the real deal.

[electricthing]

Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman

Maybe so, but I really like listening to him nonsing.

Musicians used to bend the hell out of notes just for the marvelous dissonance. Bessie Smith used to be wicked good at nailing perfect quartertones between notes, on purpose. In the Autotune Age, we conclude it's either flat or sharp and say tutt...but I love the tensions created when singers bend the notes, even when they go off the road for a bit.

It occurs to me that if opera singers didn't warble like they do, quavering around each note, they'd probably need Autotuning too.

I agree, in the New Wave era there were a lot of notes just above or under, just to make some atmosphere (or how to call it). I sometimes love singing longer important notes a 'bit' too high so it is out there and blends less with the rest.

And what about (havent read all the articles and not sure if it's mentioned);
A lovely daaaaaaaayyyyy (lovely Bill Withers)

Nice topic.
Regards

[electricthing]

Originally Posted by Nolet

Erm...everything from Lou Reed and/or The Velvet Underground? I mean, Nico on I Am Your Mirror...as if pitch wasn't invented yet! Still...who the f* cares...right...

1.Lou Reed doesn't sing so it's never out of tune.
2.When you think he might be singing he floats around a note, does an urban emotional buzz. A tough guy trying to stay tough while trying to get rid of his emotions.

[electricthing]

I use a bit of VariAudio in Cubase 6, if you shift/ drag a note, you can adjust it just a bit and that works better than just dragging it to the 'precise' pitch.
For me that goes to show that a precise pitch doesn't work (at least not with my voice)

[VCrane]

One Michael Jackson hit has one note clearly out of tune. Can't remember what it is, maybe Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'. It's odd since Michael usually sang everything perfectly. I'm sure they left it there on purpose.

[the_gof]

Originally Posted by character

I just don't understand such a strict purist approach to vocals, when accompanying music that is electronically-generated from the start. The entire soundscape is synthesized and non-human. Why does the authenticity of vocals matter so much when the same approach is not applied to instruments?

Gary Numan just called, and boy is he pissed off

But really, what does "electronically generated" even mean? Sequenced? Synthesised? A human playing a synth is just as connected to, has as much influence over, the sound of their instrument, as, say, a guitarist does. Just because the fundamental sound source is electronic, doesn't mean - as you seem to imply - that the entire thing is artificial.

[the_gof]

Originally Posted by VCrane

One Michael Jackson hit has one note clearly out of tune. Can't remember what it is, maybe Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'. It's odd since Michael usually sang everything perfectly. I'm sure they left it there on purpose.

"Off the Wall"?

[ilovemusic]

Check Beyonce, check Rihanna

tuned yet out of tuned

[legato]

Jackson 5 "I'll Be There"?

I agree with The Listener that our western 12-tone system isn't best per se. And equal temperament means slightly "out of tune" anyway.
That said, if a singer goes by that system and then suddenly is noticeably (more) flat or sharp for one note (examples of both in my earlier post, #258) then something else (albeit human) is happening.

As opposed to someone like Kristofferson who basically is slightly off-key all the time.
But hey, he's one of the very best songwriters ever.
You can't have it all.



Henk

[stinkyfingers]

dolly parton...










oh, you wrote "...huge hits..."...

[Happy Musicfan]

Thank God no one ever auto-tuned Dolly Parton..... and thank God she never opted for breast reduction surgery.



Imagine an auto-tuned, flat as a board Dolly ? Good golly.

[zulusound]

You know, I'm the original poster, and I sort of regret posting this now, it's become a huge thread. I was kind of saying that it IS cool that they allowed human imperfection on big radio hits that we've heard forever. It's still being done, I know for a fact Jack White, etc doesn't autotune, but I have put that Queen song through my rack tuner and I'm telling you he never hits the D#. I love it, I know it's a blue note, I understand the style, I LOVE Mercury, I have since I bought his vinyl back in the 70's.

Originally Posted by The Listener

That is not "flawed", that is sexy and cool.

Relax your western ears, our standard is artificial, natural perfect pitch sounds out of tune to us. And also - quarter tones can sound so good (in Persian classical, Turkish classical, Indonesian gamelan, Wendy Carlos' "Beauty in the Beast", etc.)

Freddy was an amazing singer and perfectionist - everything that was recorded should be as it is.

Some of your conclusions are cool to me, but you could also question your perception what is perfect and what is "flat" to you in the first place.

They didn't accidentally leave it in - it sounded good to all involved in the process - and the masses who liked those songs.

But there are some hits and famous songs that indeed have very out of tune singing - Cure come to mind first, Sex Pistols, too - but that is again a stylistic choice, maybe done out of neccesity, but it sounded cool to many people.

[Apollo Soul]

haha.

Just read the title too quickly, and I could've sworn it said:

"Out of tune vocals and huge tits."

Sounded like a recipe for autotune and instant pop success.

Freudian slurp, I suppose.

[LPP]

Robert Palmer's Hey Julia is seriously out of tune, particularly the BGVs. Paul Weller is consistently sharp, but I wouldn't change a thing about either of them.

[legato]

You know, I'm the original poster, and I sort of regret posting this now, it's become a huge thread.

Yep, successful thread. Why not be proud of it.

I was kind of saying that it IS cool that they allowed human imperfection on big radio hits that we've heard forever.

Seems to me quite a few agree with you in this very thread.
As always, some likely don't or only partly do, but you kinda need that too for an interesting discussion.



Henk

[zulusound]

You're right, it's been a good discussion. I only regret that people mis-read my first comment as putting down Freddie Mercury, who is without a doubt among the most epic singers in history, def one of my faves.

Originally Posted by legato

Yep, successful thread. Why not be proud of it.




Seems to me quite a few agree with you in this very thread.
As always, some likely don't or only partly do, but you kinda need that too for an interesting discussion.



Henk

[Wesma]

As long as there's a good feeling I think a little out of tune here and there can add character. Depends a lot on the song though!

To add to the topic I think Alicia Keys "No One" is a good example.

[valjean24601]

I can't believe no-one in this thread has so far mentioned Thom Yorke from Radiohead. That man weaves in and out of tune so often in almost all of Radiohead's recorded material but it works perfectly within the context of the music.

I'm a firm believer that if the vocal performance is good and the song is great then the vocal tuning is allowed to be hit and miss in parts. This thread is a testament to that with so many excellent songs and artists being cited for examples.


Cheers, Mark.

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by valjean24601

I can't believe no-one in this thread has so far mentioned Thom Yorke from Radiohead. That man weaves in and out of tune so often in almost all of Radiohead's recorded material but it works perfectly within the context of the music.

I'm a firm believer that if the vocal performance is good and the song is great then the vocal tuning is allowed to be hit and miss in parts. This thread is a testament to that with so many excellent songs and artists being cited for examples.


Cheers, Mark.

Nice one Mark!

[guid0]

Originally Posted by brill bedroom

Oh yeah, who can forget the glory of Simon LeBon? Listen to the live version of "Save A Prayer" from Arena, I dare you.

Ouch!

Ironic thing is I got to see Duran Duran live in the late eighties when they were part of David Bowie's "glass spider" tour extravaganza and LeBon's vocals were pretty much spot-on during that show.

I remember being surprised at how good that band sounded live. Save a prayer was a highpoint of that show as well. Go figure...

[electricthing]

Just one more comes to mind from that New Wave era, Theatre of Hate. Wow, how Kirk Brandon could yell and sustain that note, make it stand out on it's own above the band. I like it and it also makes me smile
I bet that there will be a considerable amount of GS folks that think it's too much (+ my wife)

[Happy Musicfan]

Yeah, the new wave era definitely had the most out of tune vocals. The freedom and boldly uninhibited individuality from that time (1975-1985) was pretty extreme.