Get that tight kick sound / Tom Sigmond

[Billster]

Tom,
I answered your question concerning tight dance kick sounds, but the thread has been closed, by the time I wanted to submit my message. Since I wrote so much that I can see my fingerbones coming through the skin (depending on lightening conditions ), at least I want to submit the answer. Anyway, here it is...

Originally Posted by Tom Sigmond

If I make it too short, the low end is disappearing.
If I put a compressor on it, the fatness of the low end disappears.
If I use a compressor with the low frequency switch so the low end say 100hz< doesn't triggers the compressor, I don't get this tight low end sound either. Its then more compressing the presence of the kick and bass.

Hi Tom,

first I have to say that I neither have the knowledge nor the experience of Mr. Brauer, but I do a lot of dance music and know some things that might help you.

What I do to obtain a chest kicking punch, as Michael put it, is that I simply use two bassdrums. One that has enough low end for ages and another one that´s really tight and upfront. That way I can define the amount of low end very precisely, when it´s time to mix. And often there is something going on even at 30 - 60 Hz, but the impulse has to be short in order to keep it tight and punchy.

Nudge the two bassdrums by very short steps of e.g. 100 samples and listen to the changes of frequencyresponse and attack !

What definately helps doing club music is a subwoofer, so you can make a judgement based on what you hear AND feel. When listening to dance music on good systems, note where you feel the kick : is it your chest, your stomach or even your feet ? That also gives you information on how to mix your own kicks.

Another thing you might try is to shorten the kick, by chopping off the end (with a short fade out) or by timestretching it a little. Sometimes this really helps the groove and makes the kick even tighter. I often prefer shortening the kick to compressing the hell out of it.

A lot of the things I mentioned also go for hiphop. I hope this was helpful !

Rock on
Bill

[Tom Sigmond]

Hello Bill,


Thanks for your responce.

I allready did layering kicks but by moving them around with 100 samples a time is something I haven't done yet. I'm gonna try that.
Evenso the timestretching. haven't try that one also so I put that advice to my data list too!

Thanks for your posting.


grtz. Tom

[mogWai]

Originally Posted by Billster

Nudge the two bassdrums by very short steps of e.g. 100 samples and listen to the changes of frequencyresponse and attack !

How would you do that, considering I run my kicks live in Battery?

I liek the way that the bass in some dance tunes sits 'behind' the kick but still clearly defined. Any mixing tips to achieve this?

My kicks sound great when I'm building the track but by the end of the mix I've lost some of that punch and most of the low end has disappeared into woof.

cheers

[Billster]

Sorry, it´s been a while, I´ve been busy the last couple of days.

Originally Posted by mogWai

How would you do that, considering I run my kicks live in Battery?

Bounce them first. To me that always seems to be tighter than doing midi (even with internal synths that recieve data with a higher resolution than midi).

[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by mogWai

I liek the way that the bass in some dance tunes sits 'behind' the kick but still clearly defined. Any mixing tips to achieve this?

All a matter of eq. Cut the freqs on the bass that you boost on the kick (or that are significantly prominent) and vice versa. If the bass seems to be behind the kick it´s likely that the bass is happening in the subbass area and not so in the 200 - 800 k range.
[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by mogWai

My kicks sound great when I'm building the track but by the end of the mix I've lost some of that punch and most of the low end has disappeared into woof.

How does that happen ? Just by adding the other tracks ? Then I suppose it also is a matter of eq. On every single track find out what are the freqs that cut through the mix. Boost those or cut the others. If you did that on your whole mix it should be much more transparent.

In dance bass / kick relationship is the most important thing. If that doesn´t sound right, it simply doesn´t matter what else is happening. So make it happen

Cheers,
Bill

[mogWai]

thanks Bill. stuff to think about

[Jeff Goodman]

I might also suggest that since in dance/club music the kick and bass are soo important, start your mix by getting the kick and bass right.

I would start by looking at an average mix of yours and mute everything except the kick and bass and note the mix output levels, then on your next mix, I would start by getting the kick and bass levels hotter than that and very tight, then I would put the vocal in and find where it sits right, and only when those three things are absolutely groovin hard then start adding in everything else. And always remember Hi and Lo pass filters are you friend, especially in dance music.

And also, once the bass/kick/vocal groove is happening mix at low levels. As you start putting in the other tracks if you start loosing the bass or kick when the control room volume is low then you'll know it very quickly.

Hope that is of some help.

Jeff

[tweaknads]

You need to compress your bassline with the side chain signal comming from your kick drum.

This way when the kick hits, the bass is compressed, making room for the kick to really do the business.

Old trick, but essential in dance music.

[Tom Sigmond]

Originally Posted by Jeff Goodman

I might also suggest that since in dance/club music the kick and bass are soo important, start your mix by getting the kick and bass right.

I would start by looking at an average mix of yours and mute everything except the kick and bass and note the mix output levels, then on your next mix, I would start by getting the kick and bass levels hotter than that and very tight, then I would put the vocal in and find where it sits right, and only when those three things are absolutely groovin hard then start adding in everything else. And always remember Hi and Lo pass filters are you friend, especially in dance music.

And also, once the bass/kick/vocal groove is happening mix at low levels. As you start putting in the other tracks if you start loosing the bass or kick when the control room volume is low then you'll know it very quickly.

Hope that is of some help.

Jeff

Good advice Jeff!


Thnx.


grtz. Tom

[zachinalaska]

yes, ducking is what your looking to do. Eq'ing a is a last resort. Except w/ maybe the bass drum, where you are working on the perfect bdrum. You want to layer and eq that. But eq'ing your bass to fit w/ your bdrum is a bad idea. Make the equipment work for you! Use a gate or a comp w/ a sidechain.

[mogWai]

so now, 2 conflicting approaches.

Is it better to leave the EQ on the bass and use a sidechain, or EQ the bass away from the kick or a combo of both?

[Jeff Goodman]

I would say do whatever works in the particular song. All songs are gonna have different kick drums and different basses playing different parts in different keys. Sometimes eq'ing works, sometimes ducking works, sometimes both work. Do whatever works.

Jeff

[u b k]

don't forget to play with the timing of the bass midi as well. slide that puppy forward or back in time, and it will have a profound effect on how the two impact as a unit. it also affects whether the bass is heard more as a distinct instrument apart from the kick, or whether one reinforces the other.

e.g, a slightly early bass note, mixed more aggressively makes the kick reinforce the bass. a slightly late bass note mixed more evenly makes the bass a powerful melodic reinforcement to the kick.

also, make sure you are tuning the kicks to the key of the song. try the root for the deep kick, and a more interesting note for the hi kick. the tuning of the kick is a huge factor in the mood of the song.


gregoire
del ubik

[Tom Sigmond]

Thanks gregoire.

Sounds very interesting!
I'm gonna try that one.


thnx.


gr. Tom