Recording Classical Guitar in a very little studio

[Benoit ALBERT]

Hi,

I'm new on gearslutz and I spend many hours reading threads about recording gears and classical guitar.

I'm a professional classical guitar player and since 5 years I'm building a recording studio at home with (i hope) very good gears.

Dav BG1
Zaolla Cables
Merging Sphynx AD/DA converter
Pyramix 6

For now, I use KM184's and I want to go further with high quality microphones.

I'm considering : Gefell M295's - DPA 4011's and Brauner Phantom c (or Panthera)

My studio is very small (2M/3M).

What would be your choice in that very little room ? other ideas ?

PS : here a sample of the sound I have now

http://9giga.sfr.fr/n/50-17/share/LNK30894ac3bf3baeef1/

Thank you.

[ElMosca]

Originally Posted by Benoit ALBERT

I'm a professional classical guitar player and since 5 years I'm building a recording studio at home with (i hope) very good gears.

Dav BG1
Zaolla Cables
Merging Sphynx AD/DA converter
Pyramix 6

For now, I use KM184's and I want to go further with high quality microphones.

I'm considering : Gefell M295's - DPA 4011's and Brauner Phantom c (or Panthera)

My studio is very small (2M/3M).

What would be your choice in that very little room ? other ideas ?

PS : here a sample of the sound I have now

http://9giga.sfr.fr/n/50-17/share/LNK30894ac3bf3baeef1/

Thank you.

Hello Benoit and welcome. I heard the sample you posted and it sounds OK, but I'm missing some of the high-end. This is surprising, seeing how a lot of people here criticize the KM184 for being "too bright." (disclaimer: I have not yet used a KM184 for classical guitar, so I don't know if this is truly an unexpected turn of events or not).

Personally, I would look at different mic placements before plunking the cash for new mics. My favorite "mic trick" for classical guitar in a small room is a small diaphragm condenser with a cardioid pattern (which is what you have) aimed at the lower bout, treble side, at a short distance (about 10cm).

But also, I must comment about the size of the studio. 2x3m sounds really small for classical guitar + you + your gear. How does it sound to you when you're playing? Is it a full sound that you wish you could capture faithfully so other people can hear what you are hearing? Have you applied acoustic treatment to the room that you currently use?
Is there a chance you could run a long microphone cable into another, larger room?

Cheers,
++aldo

[sdelsolray]

Regardless of the gear you use, you will always be battling that small room. I suppose you could put up enough soundproofing to minimize its effect, as well as using close micing, but then you'll need to artificially enhance the recorded tracks with reverb, etc. The resulting mix may be quite nice, or quite cheesy.

I record classical guitar. The Gefell M295 is an incredible mic, as is the M294. I have pairs of each.

[Benoit ALBERT]

Hi Aldo,

Thank you for you comment, yes the sound in my little studio give me a lot satisfaction. It is very intimate, I've made a lot of acoustic treatments with difracting systems (pieces of curved wood) and absorbing surfaces. I've tried to make a good balance between absorbtion and difraction.

My gear are outside the recording studio, so in the studio, there is just me and the guitar. This is also the place where I work hours everyday.

My mic placement is close to DIN (german ORTF) and about 90 cm from the guitar.

In fact, where I live in the south west of France, I have the opportunity to record in beautiful small roman churches but even if the sound is really beautiful I really don't like the church colour for modern guitar music. The other very important advantage is to record at home during rehearsals and you can record a CD during months without any problem with the editing process at th end.

At the end I use TC M3000 and a Z sys Z2 mastering equalizer. So far I'm pretty happy with all of that but I'm sure that I can improve my microphone technics and try other type of microphones.

Thank you also Sdelsolray, I need to try the Gefell M295 or 294. I've already tried DPA 4023 and Schoeps MK22. I' don't really like the Schoeps but the DPA 4023 where a way better than my KM 184.

Thank you again for your comments.

Benoît.

[The Listener]

It sounds fine. I am sure with some processing / mix this can become a great sound - with some touch of EQ and reverb...

I wouldn't be looking for better microphones too much with having that kind of sound already.

I heard people praise Sennheiser MKH series, but never tried them myself.

We recorded quite some music (with flamenco guitar as prominent instrument) with Microtech Gefell M300, Gefell UM70, Gefell M70, Shure SM81, Neumann CMV563, Audio-technica 4041, AKG C451, but you seem fine with what you have.

I am also surprised by the nice smooth sound (it doesn't sound dark to me) from Neumann KM184, since many are complaining about them being harsh and too bright... your sound demonstrates quite the opposite.

[Benoit ALBERT]

Thank you, the four steps of the improvement of my equipement were :

1 - the Merging Sphynx converter, the sound is absolutely beautiful, very smooth and precise.

2 - the DAV BG1, very very good for the acoustic guitar.

3 - Zaolla Cables

4 - Pyramix with Mykerinos, a great improuvement in comparaison with Pro Tool LE I had before; it is day and night. The Merging Sphynx goes in the Mykerinos card via ADAT and the sound of the Pyramix software is amazing !!!!

For the eq mastering I bought an used Z Sys Eq2 and it's really really good. I'm now looking for a Quantec reverb

So you think that there is no need to spend money on better mics ????

[The Listener]

Your mics seem to work for you, so I would say there is no urgent need to buy "better", maybe only "different" if you have $$ that you can easily spend right now - you can always use another colour...

I would try the Sennheisers MKH40 or 8040... take a look/listen:

YouTube - Neumann KM 184 versus Sennheiser MKH 8040

(of course it is just for a quick info, it is not relevant with youtube's low quality sound... - but in HQ you can at least hear the basic difference in sound characteristics of both mics - not very big in my opinion, but Sennheiser seems to have that "something" more)

[lobsty]

Originally Posted by Benoit ALBERT

In fact, where I live in the south west of France, I have the opportunity to record in beautiful small roman churches but even if the sound is really beautiful I really don't like the church colour for modern guitar music.

Wow - I have to say I'm jealous!
Partly because the Languedoc and the surrounding regions near it are amongst my favourite places in the world...
and also because I wish I had some old churches to record acoustic instruments in!

[Audiop]

I can second MKH8040 for guitar... and just about anything. They are really good, so good I'm thinking on a second pair and a pair of MKH8050.

That KM184 vs. MKH8040 clip maybe don't make full justice to 8040. I think that particular clip gain something from the peaked HF response of the 184 but IMO that could easily be done with some EQ on 8040. The 8040 OTOH sound a little more real and clear in the mids to me.



/Peter

[Benoit ALBERT]

lobsty, like you I love the sound of those old roman churches but it doesn't fit every music style. See and hear what we made last year in one little church with an ancient music group : Lute, Baroque Violin, Viola da Gamba, Harpsichord, percussion and me playing an old romantic spanish guitar. (taken with DPA 4006's in a Focusrite Red and ProTools)

YouTube - Ensemble Suonatori

I live just between Bordeaux and Toulouse, you're right : the life here is really amazing !!

I will make some research on the MKH8040, they seem to be smoother than the KM184

[lobsty]

Originally Posted by Benoit ALBERT

lobsty, like you I love the sound of those old roman churches but it doesn't fit every music style. See and hear what we made last year in one little church with an ancient music group : Lute, Baroque Violin, Viola da Gamba, Harpsichord, percussion and me playing an old romantic spanish guitar. (taken with DPA 4006's in a Focusrite Red and ProTools)

YouTube - Ensemble Suonatori

I live just between Bordeaux and Toulouse, you're right : the life here is really amazing !!

Wow, nice work! I do a lot of lute, dulcimer, bell cittern etc too. Nice to hear some other people on here using early music instruments, although my stuff is a lot less traditional I guess.
I ended up buying a C414 partly because I loved recording lute and classical guitar with it but again, it's a less traditional setting so that may change things.

[ElMosca]

Originally Posted by Benoit ALBERT

[...]yes the sound in my little studio give me a lot satisfaction. It is very intimate, I've made a lot of acoustic treatments with difracting systems (pieces of curved wood) and absorbing surfaces. I've tried to make a good balance between absorbtion and difraction.

Fair enough. You're happy with the way your room is working. Often, that is the most important consideration. You want a more intimate sound for XX century solo guitar than old churches give you. By the way, you are so lucky. I'd give my left nut to have easier access to large, old stone buildings, but let's continue.

My mic placement is close to DIN (german ORTF) and about 90 cm from the guitar.

I see. A spaced mic pair works great in a larger venue, recording an ensemble, but it may be giving you phase-cancellation problems in your room. Could that be the reason I'm missing the high-end in your recording? Would it be worthwhile to record a passage with your mic pair in an x-y arrangement to see if that would make a difference?

Cheers,
++aldo

[big country]

a nice gobo could add some texture

use it for stereo or just to part out the room

a gobo in a small room using condensers would be a great and
useful tool

[The Listener]

Originally Posted by Benoit ALBERT

lobsty, like you I love the sound of those old roman churches but it doesn't fit every music style. See and hear what we made last year in one little church with an ancient music group : Lute, Baroque Violin, Viola da Gamba, Harpsichord, percussion and me playing an old romantic spanish guitar. (taken with DPA 4006's in a Focusrite Red and ProTools)

YouTube - Ensemble Suonatori

I live just between Bordeaux and Toulouse, you're right : the life here is really amazing !!

I will make some research on the MKH8040, they seem to be smoother than the KM184

Great recording and playing!

How come you didn't consider DPA4006 after using them? Anyway - Sennheiser's might be what you need.

Although - I would be already happy with the sounds you are getting.

[Benoit ALBERT]

Hi Aldo,

I tried the XY recording technic long ago but at this time, I found the image really narrow and I didn't pay too much attention to the difference in the sound quality between ortf and xy. You are right I need to try that again. I can post the same piece with the xy technic.

[Benoit ALBERT]

Hi The Listener,

I didn't considered the DPA 4006 because of there omni caracteristic, it sound not really good in my little recording place, but in a church like on that video it's really amazing. But I'm really considering the DPA 4011, the cardoïd version because I had the opportunity the get two 4023 and they were really better to me than the KM 184.

I'll to contact the mkh8040 reseller in France try to catch a pair for trial at home.

[Benoit ALBERT]

Hi Big country, what's a "gobo" can you tell me more.

[ElMosca]

Originally Posted by Benoit ALBERT

Hi Big country, what's a "gobo" can you tell me more.

Hi again. The word "gobo" is short for "go-between." It denotes the movable acoustic baffling that you see in larger studios to isolate microphones. They look like the padded half-walls used to make office cubicles.

They are also used in location recording to further separate the sounds picked up by the left and the right mic in a spaced pair. Since what you are doing could be construed as a specialized form of location recording, I think this could be another thing to try.

By the way, I loved the sound on the video of Ensemble Suonatori and your guitar triptych sounds impressive as well (even via YouTube).

Good luck with you recordings. I'd love to hear your future experiments (and finished products).

Best,
++aldo

[u b k]

If your room sounds as good as you believe, and you find the imaging too narrow on x-y, I would play around with spaced omnis. The image is bigger and more dramatic, less focused and hyperaccurate, which I suggest because it sounds like you might prefer something less pristine, more musical.

I think you're on the right path with the gefell mics, especially since the schoeps didn't interest you. Since you like the DAV, I suspect you like things very slightly colored on the warm tip, not smeared or distorted, but not overly clinical and precise either. Gefell is lovely for that.

Me, I like km56's or ev635's into v72's recorded to tape. Vive la difference!

Good luck!


Gregory Scott - ubk
.

[Benoit ALBERT]

Thank you Aldo for the encouragements and the explanation of the GOBO.

I'm sur you would like the last CD I've made, it's my compositions for a strange quartet : Clarinet, Violin, Oboe and guitar ! You can hear some samples there :
CD - detour

Tell me what you think ?

[Benoit ALBERT]

Hi Gregory,

Thank you for your post, I tried omnis (DPA 4006 and Schoeps MK2S) but I had too much sound of the room and you are right, the image and I the overall sound were good, DPA more than Schoeps for me. I find the 4006 very honest with the player.

Your make a good guess on the type of sound I like. It's true I'm happy with the KM184's but I really need to keep on searching for microphones "not overly clinical and precise either" like you said.

Next month I'll try a pair of Brauner Phantom C because one of my friend who's a very good classical guiatrist heard an amazing recording made with Brauner mics.

Do you have some experiences with brauner mics ?? do you think of other options...

Benoît.

[big country]

Originally Posted by ElMosca

Hi again. The word "gobo" is short for "go-between." It denotes the movable acoustic baffling that you see in larger studios to isolate microphones. They look like the padded half-walls used to make office cubicles.

gobo
go-between



I didnt know that , makes sense though

thanks

[lobsty]

Originally Posted by big country

gobo
go-between

I didnt know that , makes sense though

thanks

I didn't know that either - heehee!
So they should actually be called Gobees
So does that mean could have been called The Gobos instead? Would they have been as popular? Kinda makes them sound like Fraggles...

[ElMosca]

Originally Posted by Benoit ALBERT

I'm sur you would like the last CD I've made, it's my compositions for a strange quartet : Clarinet, Violin, Oboe and guitar ! You can hear some samples there :
CD - detour

Tell me what you think ?

Benoit, I like what you are doing a lot. Your work/direction reminds me of Ruben Riera's work. He also works with a wide spectrum of styles: from old music on lute/tiorba to contemporaray music for small ensembles. He also published works with guitar + electronic music.

Here's for strange quartets everywhere!
++aldo

[Benoit ALBERT]

Hi Aldo,

I'll visit this Ruben's site, I saw some yutube video, looks very interesting. Thank you for the link.

Here's a lttle Duke Ellington piece on a very old Martin guitar. I took that few days ago during one of my work session and made some mastering on it ;

KM 184's - Cable Zaolla - DAV BG1 - Merging Sphynx - Pyramix 6 - TC M3000 - Z SYS ZQ2

What do you think of the sound (musicaly there was no editing, it's in one shot, so not really the best)
http://9giga.sfr.fr/n/50-17/share/LNK67794acc380626fa8/

Benoît.

[ElMosca]

Originally Posted by Benoit ALBERT

Hi Aldo,

I'll visit this Ruben's site, I saw some yutube video, looks very interesting. Thank you for the link.

Here's a lttle Duke Ellington piece on a very old Martin guitar. I took that few days ago during one of my work session and made some mastering on it ;

KM 184's - Cable Zaolla - DAV BG1 - Merging Sphynx - Pyramix 6 - TC M3000 - Z SYS ZQ2

What do you think of the sound (musicaly there was no editing, it's in one shot, so not really the best)
http://9giga.sfr.fr/n/50-17/share/LNK67794acc380626fa8/

Benoît.

Nice version. Not bad for one take. But, really, that's a great sound. Much brighter than the classical example you posted at the beginning of the thread (of course, in this example you are playing a steel-string, so it's expected).

I did had a minor issue with the squeaks. I don't mind the occasional left-hand squeak, but in this piece, with this guitar, they become a little distracting. I played briefly with the "MONO" button while playing your piece back through my digi 002, and found that it reduced the squeaks, but I also lost some of the high-end in the material.

I'm sorry to sound like a broken record, but I would attack the squeaks with mic placement. I guess I'm partial to experimenting with placement because the size of my mic locker doesn't leave much room for other types of experimentation .

Here's two additional mic placements that I would try if I was there in person: (1) mounting the mic pair behind you, pointing at your guitar over your head and shoulders, in a "player's-point-of-view" type of placement (I'm sure there's a one-word definition for this placement, but I can't remember it) and (2) mid-side (hopefully, you'll have access to a figure-8 mic).

Cheers and keep me posted,
++aldo

[ears2thesky]

I often record acoustic guitars with two mics equidistant from the instrument, but one targeted at the area below the bridge and one aiming at the end of the fingerboard at an angle from the hole. Very rarely are these two mics the same model. I prefer a cardioid small diaphragm where the plucking occurs and a cardioid large diaphragm for the body position.

When positioned correctly I get great low end and push from the LDC and excellent transient attack from the SDC. The tonal variety possible with this technique give me a lot to work with in the final mix. For example: add ambience to the SDC for a more reflected sound or the LDC for more of a warm wash.

The distance both mics are from the guitar gives me less or more room sound. When really tight the room is negligible. With a less than desirable room I'll record tight and add some ambience after the fact.

I typically pan them left and right but usually not all the way out depending on the desired width. When you really want the room and huge spread a figure-8 centered at the instrument works well.

[Benoit ALBERT]

Aldo, thank you for your comment, I didn't experiment the two configurations you'are talking about.

The subjective placement (the player one) is really odd beacause I'm sure that the musician never really listen to the real sound of the guitar because of his position above the instrument and not in front like the audience. But why not...

The middle side technic, I've never tried but it's one of my next step I'm sure, a lot people are using that in small rooms. What would be a good mic with 8 figure ???

[Benoit ALBERT]

ears2thesky, I'm using sometimes this technic but when I'm listenning I'm feeling a little bit schizophrenic and when you pan one mic on the left and the other on the right, I feel that there is two guitars because of the color difference.

In this sample : CD - detour
Listen to "Conduit N°4" solo guitar
I use this recording technic : KM 184 for XII fret and SCT 2000 for the bridge.

What do you think ?

[GES]

Hello Albert,

My name is Pablo Garibay, Im also classical guitarist. I am in Germany.
It is nice to meet a classical guitarist. I saw your videos on you tube and like them very much! While I write this I am listening to the ensamble suonatori with "Musique Italienne du XVIIIème siècle." and I find it fantastic ensemble and music! Your mertz is also nice!

I am beginning in this world of recording. I use also the km184, CM3 from line audio (that lately I find totally fantastic), and the se4400a from se electronics...DAV preamps.

Lately I've been practicing with ancient music, (not playing it but recording it) I record friends and music students to learn the recording practice.

The last recording I made was in a church, which I find allways fantastic to play guitar and quiet instruments....I recorded a lute player (Dowland pieces)...and at the end of this month I will record a Theorbo-lutes-archilutes ensemble, 8 instruments in total...

I am thinking of using MS technique, I wil see...

Anyway, nice to meet you, and hope we can share advices and musical opinions...

Au revoir!
Pablo

here is the dowland sample in the post 13:
Lute songs recording setup