Recording Classical Guitar in a very little studio

[urse121]

Please, tell us how it went with the Brauner Phantom!

[tomguitar]

Hello Benoit,

I just noticed your post. We have a similar set up.

I am also a classical guitarist in Australia. I have recently set up a private studio and finished recording a new CD yesterday though it is not mastered yet.

My gear is.

Sphynx 2 A/D convertor

madi interface

samplitude pro 11

mac powerbook

Genelec monitors

matched pair of Gefell Umt 70s

I have built a studio a 7 by 7 metre octagon.

I use two guitars a Greg Smallman and A lattice brace guitar made by my father.

My new CD is recorded on the guitar by my father.

It will be ready soon and I can send you a link to have a listen.

You might be interested in the Gefell Mic's

They are a fantastic Mic and sound like a warmer AKG 414 and really clear especially with the sphynx.

The next step for me is first so sound proof my studio i had some problems there. And also to look into a brighter mic to pick up the ambient noise and room reverb in the background then mix them together in the mastering.

I recommend using a warm mic up close like the Gefell Umt 70s or a good Neumann and Brighter mic in the background. Later you can then control the reverb by adjusting the levels of the bright mic's. But this might not work in a small room.


All the best,

Tom Ward

P.S. I have youtube videos but none have my studio sound yet.

[Benoit ALBERT]

Tom,

Thank you for your post. I would be very interested to listen to your mastering.

Since my last post, 1 year before (sorry urse121 ! ), I'm still working with those gears : KM 184's - Cable Zaolla - DAV BG1 - Merging Sphynx - Pyramix 6 - TC M3000 - Z SYS ZQ2

But I have some new staff and they are really interesting :

- Quantec reverb 2402/F, amazing reverb on solo classical guitar, it gives the space I miss in my little studio without coloring the sound. It's working only in digital AES, so there is no re-convertion in/out

- I contacted Roger Jonsson from Line Audio in Sweden (MICROPHONES LINE AUDIO DESIGN). He's building amazing mics and preamps.

I have now the QM12i QUAD / Multi Mic and I'm recording MS setup : the sound is really amazing. It gives space and it's the closest sound to what i ear in the reality. If you have time, take a look to this mic, it's a four channel mic and you can use it in a lot of ways (LINE AUDIO DESIGN)
Surround, MS, Blumlein, Stéreo XY, Omni, cardio etc... It's a tool.
The sound is very clean an natural, perhaps less definition than very expensive mics like DPA but it works much better than the Schoeps I tried in my room.
The are not expensive at all.

Also from line audio I bought a 8 channel preamp called 8MP and like the mic, the preamp is really good, clean and really cheap.

I bought also a Brauner Phantom Classic and made some tries witj a Brauner Phantom V in MS and it's really really good, larger than life and very precise and very alive.

By the way I've just finished the editing and mastering of my new solo guitar CD on my composition, if you want to hear some sample : CD - Solo Works 1

sorry, it's MP3.
The gears are :

REcording
2 neumann KM184 / Zaolla cable
pre-amplification - DAV BG1
Converters Merging Sphynx 24bit / 44.1 khz
Mykerinos Card / Pyramix 6

Mastering
Digital reverb Quantec Yardstick 2402/F
Digital EQ Z-Systems ZQ2
DAW Pyramix 6

[Nobilmente]

Along with other suggestions made above, for your small room you may like to try a pair of PZM's, either spaced or set up on either side of a baffle.

There are a number available, including some which are extremely inexpensive, with capsules made by Crown. These are often seen for sale on eBay, and are cheap enough to try.

Getting into a slightly larger room with a bit of reverb would be best though, it doesn't have to be a Roman church, no one can see it's a Roman church after it's recorded, it just needs to be somewhere quiet with a nice acoustic (as you know).

DAV is a great choice and the Gefell UM70's mentioned above, are also to be recommended for many uses.

This is a sample which was recorded by someone on the site on a pair of UM70's in cardiod and which I had stored on my computer. I'm sorry it's in mp3. I think they were in ORTF, but I'm not sure.

[Benoit ALBERT]

Hi Nobilmente,

Very nice sample, do you know who's playing ??

The sound is great. A lot a people told me that for the guitar the Gefell M295 gives very good result also, I have to try.

I've made some research on PZM mics, very interesting. Where would you put that kind of mic in a small room for the guitar ?

[Benoit ALBERT]

MBHO in Germany are making PZM mics and one of them is stereo with a Jecklin disc in the middle. MBNM 622 E PZ
http://www.mbho.de/pdf/mbnm621epz_mbnm622epz.pdf

Could be interesting to try ? someone did ?

[Nobilmente]

Hi Benoit

PZM's are handy in small rooms, because they effectively deal with comb filtering from early reflections.

You could start out by placing a couple on the floor and spacing them in front of the guitar. They need to be placed on a largish area to achieve a good bass response. They record as omnis, but give only a hemisphere as they are placed on a flat surface.

If you wish to have them closer to the instrument, they can be mounted on two boards which are arrayed in a V format. To make things easier I've located the URL below, which gives a lot of information on them and the V shape mounting. When mounted in this fashion they are in a form of ORTF.

With a very small room, you are not particularly trying to capture that sound are you? It might also be possible to turn a table on its side and space mount them on top of that facing the guitar, you could then move closer or further away depending on what gave the best results.

The V shape setup I mentioned is also shown on the URL below, this is taken from information that Crown give for PZM application.

Google Image Result for https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/type/www/audio-reports/BoundaryMicExperiments/BoundaryMicsStudy/BoundaryMicsStudy_files/image028.gif

The very cheap PZM's I mentioned that use Crown capsules are those made by/for Tandy/Radio Shack. They come up on ebay very often and are certainly worth experimenting with.

I use PZM's every so often, in some interesting and (I think) innovative ways within ensembles, which has proved very successful.

I don't know who the guitarist is on the recording, and I think that it is possible that the UM70's might have been better facing the guitar than having them in ORTF - the off axis pattern is not tight on the UM70 M7 capsule in cardiod. Although the gentleman who recorded the guitar probably found ORTF to be best for him.

With PZM's off axis need not be a consideration.

In a very small room like yours, I think I might be tempted to make PZM's a starting point.

[Benoit ALBERT]

Nobilmente,

Thank you for your post, very interesting document about the PZM's, I need to spend few hours on it.

What kind of converter and preamp you're using ?? is there something more interesting to use with PZM ?
What do you think of the MBHO PZM products, any experience with them ?

Thanks.

Benoît.

[Nobilmente]

I don't think that concentrating on micpres and converters would be a help to you until you have the microphone set up sorted out.

In answer to your question about micpre, we're very heavily into DAV BG micpres here, I think they are just superb and I would certainly not like to be without them.

Guitar is not an instrument I record very often, and there are others on this site with far more experience with that instrument than me, but your room and finding the right mic set up seems to be quite important I feel, and in your postition I feel I might investigate PZM's.

I have microphones that use capsules made by MBHO and I really like those particular microphones - they sound very natural, but I do not own any of their own microphones, however, on this site Plush has recommended them, and that alone would encourage me to buy without further consideration.

The Tandy microphones I mentioned are expremely cheap and would give you an indication of how PZM's might perform for you. Then, when you have confirmed for yourself that they work well (which I'm sure they will) you could get the MBHO PZM's, (or Crown/Beyer etc.)

In the Tandy microphones, it may be as well to change over the + & - wires, so that they are wired in line with your other things in France, you can do that at the plug or at the microphone.

[Teddy Ray]

in my opinion, the greatest mic for this sort of thing is the Gefell MK221 with josephson C617 bodies. Your preamps are fine. You don't need anything else. your ROOM and mic placement/room treatment ..those are the areas you need to focus on.

just incredible. all other SDCs pale in comparison.

the following tracks were recorded by Mr. El McMeen on a superscope recorder(built in pres) and a single earthworks mic...talent trumps all!!

Mo Giolla Mear Mastered - mp3.mp3
MP3 audio file [2.4 MB]



Jock O'Hazeldean Mastered
Jock.mp3
MP3 audio file [5.2 MB]

[Teddy Ray]

Also...the Jecklin Disc is a SUPERB way to record Classical guitar...

as is Blumlein.

Pierre Sprey of Mapleshade Acoustics gets phenomenal Results using a modified PZM into a tape machine.

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/

Opus 3 Records Jan Eric Persson gets amazing results using a Stereo Microphone again...to a tape machine.

www.opus3records.com (check out the classical guitar work there..sounds great)

yarlung records gets great results using a single pair of HQ microphones into a digital record chain

www.yarlungrecords.com

MA records gets amazing results using a pair of highly modified DPA microphones into a digital recorder.

http://www.marecordings.com/main/pro...products_id=80

Listen to #1:
"Allemande grave"
realaudio dowwnload
Listen to #1:
"Allemande grave"
DSL/Cable realaudio stream
* this is a 176.4 kHz hi-sampling recording

“The King's Teacher” is collection of suites by French Baroque composer Robert de Visée (Louis XIV's guitar teacher), elegantly performed by Eduardo Egüez on lute, theorbo and baroque guitar. Hopefully this will be delightful listening for those who have heard Eduardo's two J.S. Bach recordings on MA. Robert De Visée, a renown guitarist and composer during the Baroque era, left a multitude of works for the lute, theorbo, and guitar; far more than J. S. Bach composed for those same instruments. Even though the sample is short on the MA site, we hope you can somehow get a feel for the beauty of this music.

For the cover, we though it would be nice to use an image of a flower. And, in our endeavors to find something we felt would work, we discovered that the Magnolia was named after the famous French Botanist Pierre Magnol, a contemporary of Robert de Visée. Fortunately, we were able to use a beautiful Magnolia photo by Italian photographer Franco Pupulin (Another of his amazing photos was used for the cover of Buenos Aires Madrigal).

“The King's Teacher” was recorded in November, 2002 with MA's own custom made, line level mikes, at 176.4 kHz on a Fostex DVD-RAM recording machine. The location was the same church that the J.S. Bach recordings were produced in, the Cathedral of the Convento Dell'Annunziata, Rovato, in the Brescia region of Italia.

Waterlily Acoustics records exclusively in Blumlein. Custom built mics into custom made Tim de Paravincini tape machine.
www.waterlilyacoustics.com




there is a theme here with all these amazing sounding records...

Minimalist Mic Techniques with a very minimalist recording chain into a great acoustic.

[alkooloid]

Jumping w/o reading entire thread - but an acoustician I know says curved surfaces are sonically funky. Verigated are the way. Just sayin'!

[Benoit ALBERT]

Teddy, the sample you sent are really beautiful.

For me, so far, the best sound I have in my studio is with the Line Audio QM12i in MS setting. Blumlein with that same mic is really good also.
LINE AUDIO DESIGN

I'll post some examples tomorrow.

[bkbirge]

Here's a tune I recorded with a pair of Chameleon TS-2 mics through Roll Tubule pres. Pattern is wide cardioid, spacing is 1 pointed at 12 fret, other pointed in the general vicinity of the sound hole, moved around a bit to taste. The player is really good but he was just messing around. No EQ, no compression, tiny tiny room (carpeted living room), this is what went to tape (HD24)...

JuanClassical.mp3

[Benoit ALBERT]

This is a sample with Line Audio QM12i in M/S setup in Line Audio preamp 8MP and Merging Sphynx converter with Pyramix 6

Careful: it's a little romantic guitar (1820) with a really special sound, nothing to do with the big modern guitars.

No process on the sound, just like the take.

http://9giga.sfr.fr/n/50-17/share/LNK39244cbea897224ae/

Tell me your thoughts.