Is PT HD slowly giving way to native Nuendo?

[songbirdsound]

I'm wondering if PT is going the way of the dinosaur, especially HD.

[drBill]

What?? You couldn't find one of the 8,000 threads that's beat this subject to death and beyond?

[songbirdsound]

Originally Posted by drBill

What?? You couldn't find one of the 8,000 threads that's beat this subject to death and beyond?

Ouch. Well, I did a search, and didn't see anything asking this question. I'll search again.

It's not a PT vs. Nuendo question. It's more like, is the standard changing? If so, why, and where should we go with it.

My take: native processing is progressing so much faster than DSP/core card/PCI processing that it would make sense to me to just invest in a native system that supports more tracks than PTLE.

I dislike redundant threads as much as the next guy. Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse.

[TornadoTed]

I've just gone from Nuendo to Pro Tools HD, the reason because the majority of the producers using my place request it. So I would say no, the standard isn't changing at all.

[DP40oz]

Native is great if not better but Pro Tools is still the standard and will probably contnue to be so for a long time. Most major studios have invested lots of money in Pro Tools and have no need to change.

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

Well, I did a search, and didn't see anything asking this question.

What about a cursory glace at some of the recent top threads?

Pro Tools is not going anywhere. I have used many of the other DAW's out there and none have the speed and reliability for the work that I do OTHER than PTHD.

[songbirdsound]

Originally Posted by DP40oz

Native is great if not better but Pro Tools is still the standard and will probably contnue to be so for a long time. Most major studios have invested lots of money in Pro Tools and have no need to change.

I get what you're saying, but you said it...native is great if not better. If only PTLE had unlimited (or at least a HELL of a lot more tracks). I just can't do what I need to with so few tracks. And paying for more tracks via Toolkit? Gripes aside, PT does certain things VERY well.

I heard rumors that the company's bleeding money, may get bought out by Avid, and support may go down the toilet. I could be way, way off. Again, a rumor.

I love Cubase, and is my DAW of choice. Plus I haven't had any problems with native processing so far. YMMV. So far I'm happy with native processing, but PTHD still says "pro" like no other. Just trying to get a feel for what's going on out there.

Again, where there's growth, there's product, and native processing is definitely growing.

[songbirdsound]

Originally Posted by Mayor999

What about a cursory glace at some of the recent top threads?

Yeah, I see them now. My bad.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by DP40oz

Native is great if not better

Every HD system can take advantage of the host processor in addition to its hardware cards. In what way can native be "better"?


You can argue 'cheaper' or you can argue 'diminishing returns' but it seems obvious to me that every advance of native processing means if you throw some HD cards into that new machine, you still have MORE.

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by joeq

Every HD system can take advantage of the host processor in addition to its hardware cards. In what way can native be "better"?


You can argue 'cheaper' or you can argue 'diminishing returns' but it seems obvious to me that every advance of native processing means if you throw some HD cards into that new machine, you still have MORE.

And EVEN if you don't use that "more" for plugin processing... you still are gaining quite a large amount of processing load that the host does not have to do.

[songbirdsound]

So all-in-all, PTHD is still a good investment over native processing? What if the company goes under? Do they still sell enough HD rigs to support them well into the future?

[Bob Olhsson]

People have been saying it's about to replace PTHD for at least five years now. I haven't seen any signs of that. In fact a number of the folks I know who were given systems have paid to switch to HD.

[mac black]

There is no software on the market that's as stable as Protools, and I'm a logic user for many years (as well as Protools HD accel for the past 5 years.
Relying on native means loss of stability when it comes to timing.
When I mix a record on Protools, as boring as it is (I find protools the most boring of them all), it always sounds the same, when mixing in Logic, it's a different sounding mix, every time,l and I mean timing, slipping out of time, flams etc. I have to take 5 passes just in case when using Logic, only 1 when using prootols.

[te-problematique]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

I get what you're saying, but you said it...native is great if not better. If only PTLE had unlimited (or at least a HELL of a lot more tracks). I just can't do what I need to with so few tracks. And paying for more tracks via Toolkit? Gripes aside, PT does certain things VERY well.

I heard rumors that the company's bleeding money, may get bought out by Avid, and support may go down the toilet. I could be way, way off. Again, a rumor.

I love Cubase, and is my DAW of choice. Plus I haven't had any problems with native processing so far. YMMV. So far I'm happy with native processing, but PTHD still says "pro" like no other. Just trying to get a feel for what's going on out there.

Again, where there's growth, there's product, and native processing is definitely growing.

Are you talking about digidesign? becuase they're already owned by avid, as are pinnacle and sibelius and m-audio

[shanabit]

Steinberg is changing the name of Nuendo to Nuendo Pro so it will be PRO

[LQM]

There has been a small amount of change in certain circles.

For example, Nuendo is actually very commonly used in studios in Nashville and has taken a small % of the post production or TV work from PTHD but we are not talking a revolution here.

Logic and Cubase/Nuendo have been used to produce and mix quite a few recent hit albums. But again, because of the 'engineer's union' protecting Digidesign, it's still very much the minority.

I use Logic and PTHD at work. I prefer Logic for most things, mixing is OK in PTHD so long as you watch your voice allocation and don't make dumb mistakes which cost you voices in PTHD and some of the plugins available in TDM format are really nice, although most have equivalents in native VST/AU/RTAS.

If Logic was having the issues described by the previous poster, then something was not set up right, hardware conflict or user error. I have mixed huge projects in Live since Logic 6 and then 7,8 and now 9 and never experienced those issues.

I agree with you that PTLE/MP could and should be improved because the big studio market (and especially the mid sized studio) is shrinking under the recession and music piracy, coupled with the home studio revolution (so fewer people are going to project studios or mid sized studios to record demos, when they can do it at home for less than a couple of thousand dollars investment). Digidesign can't afford to ignore the home market and their LE/MP product is easily trumped in terms of features and flexibility right now.

if Steinberg changed Nuendo's name to 'PRO - NENDO' I bet they would see a huge upswing in sales. Damned Digidesign, the one thing they got so right was the name, because to most goobers on the street 'PRO' makes it professional - so every other software must be AMATEUR. DOH! But it's so true. Most clients wouldn't know the difference if you had a Nuendo arrange and mixer view and told them it was protools, but if they caught wind they would think you were 'amateur'.

[hipass]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

So all-in-all, PTHD is still a good investment over native processing? What if the company goes under? Do they still sell enough HD rigs to support them well into the future?

- Gear i not an investment in other words you better have the work to pay for it.
- Maybe they will stop making computers as well as Digidesign gear - Not going to happen
- Hundreds of thousands of users any future? - you bet.

While you at it may be you can phone Sunset or Ocean Way how many HD rigs they are getting rid of and replacing them with Nintendo systems....

[shanabit]

Id like to see one codebase with Steinberg and just have

Nuendo Post
Nuendo Pro

Drop the Cubase name

Actually, Nuendo is dying a slow death to be honest as Pros are TIRED of Steinbergs policies

[MATTI]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

I heard rumors that the company's bleeding money, may get bought out by Avid, and support may go down the toilet. I could be way, way off. Again, a rumor.

It IS owned by Avid since... year one or two atleast

Matti

[LQM]

Originally Posted by hipass

-
While you at it may be you can phone Sunset or Ocean Way how many HD rigs they are getting rid of and replacing them with Nintendo systems....

Ha, Ha !! That is so freakin' hilarious you ought to be on the telly. Better get me to the ER, I think my sides are going to split - almost as funny as - wait for it, (drum roll) Pro Fools or Poor Tools - TA DA !!

[carllock]

I have to say it one more time just to feel better, I hate Pro-tools I have been around music since the sinful seventies and watched digital evolve by playing a active role in the early days.

Protools always seemed "difficult" for no reason at all other than putting in extra steps. I only pull that crap out when a client really needs in the format or I am burning a simple stem for console mixing.

Curse me out but I find almost anything more fun than Protools even (relative ) cheapies like Acid, Ableton, Cubase LE, and on and on. Even with the big boy daws like Nuendo, Cubase, Logic, Sonar, Reaper..... Protools is a joke if the digital production clock restarted to now.

Part of my rant to be honest is the fact that I have been so "put off" by the product I never gave it a fair chance to learn inside out like a lot of you who are "Pro" Protools reading this post saying "maybe the idiot never learned Protools".

Most things in life can be related to women. Protools is like that girl in high school who had a crush on you she was very smart, killer body, but you would never bone her because your buddies would never let you live that down. Then later on life you meet up with her again and hit the sheets, great night but now she is calling and stalking. Whenever Protools calls I am like "not this chick again".

P.s.
After ranting just noticed I forgot to answer thread...Yes Protools will be the royalty of the industry for as long as we all can guess...but don't give that chick my number!

[carllock]

Originally Posted by mac black

There is no software on the market that's as stable as Protools, and I'm a logic user for many years (as well as Protools HD accel for the past 5 years.
Relying on native means loss of stability when it comes to timing.
When I mix a record on Protools, as boring as it is (I find protools the most boring of them all), it always sounds the same, when mixing in Logic, it's a different sounding mix, every time,l and I mean timing, slipping out of time, flams etc. I have to take 5 passes just in case when using Logic, only 1 when using prootols.

Sounds like you need to download and try Reaper, I was a steinberg nut since Steinberg Pro 16 (came on those giant floppy disk for Commadore 64) but Reaper is becoming a monster, and you can load it from a USB pen drive. I was scared of reaper because how long I was a Steinberg nut but it's a robust program and sounds really good (64 bit engine). The folders option (Folder based grouping) is worth the learning curve. Google a Reaper Manual PDF and it will make it better to learn.

[songbirdsound]

Sorry, I knew digi is owned by avid, I meant taken over by avid due to profit loss. In otherwords, the disolvment of digi due to lack of flagship product sales.

Don't get me wrong...I'm no PT hater. I prefer cubase but know PT quite well! In fact, I programmed cubase to respond to PT quick keys. However, there are definite winners in the native category, and due to track limitation PTLE I don't think is one of them.

I see the beauty in standardization, and if PT is it then great. I just don't want to see me or my producer invest in the wrong toys.

[steveschizoid]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

I just don't want to see me or my producer invest in the wrong toys.

Then it's obvious; you should use Cubase and take all the money you would otherwise spend on PTHD and spend it on on mics, and/or outboard gear. No one has proven that Protools sounds any better than Cubase. If you want great, non-native plugins, invest in a UAD Quad.

Let's see. Cubase + Lynx Aurora 16 + Lynx aES16e + UAD Quad =
500+ 3000 + 700 + 1500 = $5700

PTHD3 card + digi 192 =
14,000 + 4,000 = $18,000

The UAD plug ins are very good (especially the Fatso emulation!) , so you may want to pick up one of those anyway, which would bring your total to $19,500.
Plus, you have to pay Digidesign for tech support.

These two systems will do basically the same things, but at a cost difference of $13,000! There are several ways you could spend $13,000 that would have a drastic impact on your sound. Ultimately you will be evaluated by your clients and potential clients based on the quality of your work, not by the name of the software you use.

[The MPCist]

here we go again...

I'm a PT HD user and there's no way I'd ever go to Nuendo. Period. Almost all the folks I know on PT HD feel the same way.

[Stiff]

Originally Posted by carllock

I
Curse me out but I find almost anything more fun than Protools even (relative ) cheapies like Acid, Ableton, Cubase LE, and on and on.

I'm not going to curse you out, I will even agree with you, well, to some extent. Live is a lot more fun than Pro Tools. FL Studio is also a lot of fun. Acid was a lot of fun when I tried it, but that was years ago (which reminds me, I should probably give it another go soon right after I'm done with Record and Studio One). That's where it stops, to me, Logic and Cubase and the rest based on the Cubase look and tape machine operation are not more or less fun than Pro Tools - they're just as boring. On the other hand, the joy of recording a great song is good enough for me

[herecomesyourman]

I would argue that protools sounds noticeably worse than any Stienberg product for tracking or mixing. As it seems to truncate and / or dither low end response below 50Hz in a noticeably artificial sounding way.

I measured this once with a spectral analyzer vs samples in other DAWS...Radar seemed the "truest" to me...followed by Cubase 4 at the time. (This was almost two years ago) Keep in mind Radar comes it's own converters that are worth a considerable amount of money.

I still use Cubase 4 as my primary DAW...and I also sometimes use Ableton Live in conjunction with it. But all my live tracking goes to Cubase.

I currently use RME converters...though I know that half of the post readers will yell and scream about how Apogee is a safer bet...but to my ears I actually prefer my Fireface 800 to any Rosetta I've tried. (It felt more "even"...or flatter to me, but whatever)

The money I would have spent on Protools HD went into great mics and outboard as the previous post suggested. My Neves sound fantastic...my Great River EQ 2NV's were both worth the money...and my compressors I couldn't live without. All that stuff combined would have equaled an HD system outfitted with plugs. I prefer my analog hybrid / native setup, but that's just me.

[Stiff]

To the OP, regarding the original question: it's not changing, at least not rapidly or in a revolutionary way. Pro Tools HD is still the top dog, Mboxes are still sold and PT8 was most likely a success.

However, I should point out that Avid must take caution. Contrary to what some appear to believe, I don't think there ever will be a 'Pro Tools killer' that's released and snatches the entire user base in one swift move. I think the real danger for Avid is what have already been implied, that more and more migrate slowly, silently, without Avid taking too much notice because sales are just a little down from the year before. Not saying it is happening now, but I think it is what they should be cautious for.

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

Sorry, I knew digi is owned by avid, I meant taken over by avid due to profit loss. In otherwords, the disolvment of digi due to lack of flagship product sales.

I'm not sure what you've heard, but at the moment the situation is this: Avid 'rebranded' (and I use that term loosely in this particular situation) to make it appear that all their companies are now one big happy family called Avid. They contradict themselves by releasing products beginning with the word 'Digidesign' but at the same time saying that "Digidesign is Avid". Anyway, they would be nuts to kill off Pro Tools, because the audio department is in a way doing a lot better than the video department.

[mac black]

Ok, surely there is a reason why all the top studios and producers end up mixing in protools, so are you guys saying that for the past decade and a half all the top producers engineers and artists have been wrong ? why would someone take the advice of non protools users over : Trevor Horn, Mutt Lange ... their engineers & most hit records since the 90's ? There are cheaper options and there should always be a choice but unless one has spent a few years with each software and mastered it, I don't think that one is in a position to judge whether PT is dead or not ...
You can make a hit record with a 4 track that's true, but if you'd like to thrive for excellence than look at what the most successful people in the business are doing and take that into consideration.

[herecomesyourman]

Originally Posted by mac black

Ok, surely there is a reason why all the top studios and producers end up mixing in protools, so are you guys saying that for the past decade and a half all the top producers engineers and artists have been wrong ? why would someone take the advice of non protools users over : Trevor Horn, Mutt Lange ... their engineers & most hit records since the 90's ? There are cheaper options and there should always be a choice but unless one has spent a few years with each software and mastered it, I don't think that one is in a position to judge whether PT is dead or not ...
You can make a hit record with a 4 track that's true, but if you'd like to thrive for excellence than look at what the most successful people in the business are doing and take that into consideration.

They're not wrong, they just like what they like, or hire operators to do the dirty work ITB because they're old school engineers who think computers have their own set of flaws vs tape.

Now I want to preface the rest of my letter by explaining my position...

I measured these DAWS for a company I worked for in order to write code on our own proprietary recording software that came out last year. MyStudio (this is the company in question, and we were the only company to ever recieve an endorsment from the Grammys...that should tell you that I'm not some amatuer status tech)

Cubase and Nuendo which both use the same damn algorithm to convert signal are noticeably more "correct" in freq spectrum analysis to the SOURCES I tracked and measured with a spectral analyser.

Reaper, Logic and Ableton Live were somewhere in between both ends of the spectrum. But the low end in Pro Tools takes a hit during tracking. And again when you bounce tracks down.

It's not wrong to use it...but it is wrong to assume that there aren't any professionals who use other DAWS. My bosses at my old job were Larry Ryckman (co-founder of Interscope Records w/ Jimmy Iovine) and Shelly Yakus (One of the greatest engineers to have ever lived) All three of us listening back to samples had to agree that we needed to move closer to what Stienberg does sonically because it was closer to matching exactly to the oringal sources we tracked in harmonic content.