Is PT HD slowly giving way to native Nuendo?

[Mike Brown]

Originally Posted by herecomesyourman

It doesn't make me distraut at all...but I'm sorry if I happened to ruin your day. I don't mean to be rude, but since you were first...

Dude...in the end I got to make a device with some of the greats...that records, mixes, masters and syncs to HD video in real time.

Do you grasp what I'm saying?

I helped create a "virtual" engineer that sounds a lot more professional than the bulk of most home studios ever could. Mainly because it's modeled after the tastes of one of the best.

Part of this is because we siezed on as much harmonic content before EQ as possible.

Click on the link...listen to some samples. Use your damn ears.

MyStudio

And what we used for this we had to CREATE from scratch. I was never arguing for pro tools or against...I'm just saying along the way, it's weaknesses became apparent.

Expensive toys do not a man make.

Didn't ruin my day! This thread is gold!

[Gibson]

Originally Posted by herecomesyourman

I respectfully disagree. It's not a matter of "Fatness" it's just a matter of how much information is crammed into that wave file.

You get MORE tracking to stienberg. You get more again using Radar...but it's got it's own converters...and it's extremely expensive.

It is audible. And it's certainly measurable. I spent weeks testing this stuff...and months making something new from scratch to try to beat everything consumer based for a private company. It's not a "dog whistle" kind of deal. It's plain as day.

What gets me is people here go on about the different tone of Hardware -Compsressors , EQs , Mics , Converters , Preamps ect.
They even hear differences when comparing pluginns.

Software is just as obvious as I pick 1 pre over another and can also pick one software over others.. I have done my share of A/Bing software.

I personaly love the Nuendo sound...

[Matti]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

Wait, I thought PTHD was heralded for its delay compensation over native?

Try throwing AutoTune into PTLE and feel the swing!!1!

I use Nuendo without delay compensation just to be on level with Protools LE
users and still...

Matti

P.S. not really

[mbradzick]

Originally Posted by Podgorny

Why is he grabbing his crotch with his left hand?

[mbradzick]

Originally Posted by Mayor999

So i just recorded 8 mics of drums (same performance) into both PTHD & into Cubase.

Multed right after preamps into converters.

192's for PT & Apogee Ensemble for Cubase. Both clocked internally.

Which one is Cubase? Which one sounds "better"?

Test-1
Attachment 134379
Test-2
Attachment 134380

Well, I don't think it's a fair test cause you're not using the same I/O and conversion for each DAW, but I'll shoot anyway.

Based on what I'm hearing in the hi's, I think Test-1 is PT and Test-2 is the Ensemble. I don't think either one sounds better than the other. One sounds smoother/rounder and the other sounds a little "spittier" on the hi's. Again I don't think it's an accurate way to judge DAWs when you're using different I/Os.

Also hard to tell for me just based on the short clip, and the difference between PT and other DAWs is subtle. How about using PT hardware for both tests?

[roostert]

Originally Posted by LQM

There has been a small amount of change in certain circles.

For example, Nuendo is actually very commonly used in studios in Nashville and has taken a small % of the post production or TV work from PTHD but we are not talking a revolution here.

Logic and Cubase/Nuendo have been used to produce and mix quite a few recent hit albums. But again, because of the 'engineer's union' protecting Digidesign, it's still very much the minority.

I use Logic and PTHD at work. I prefer Logic for most things, mixing is OK in PTHD so long as you watch your voice allocation and don't make dumb mistakes which cost you voices in PTHD and some of the plugins available in TDM format are really nice, although most have equivalents in native VST/AU/RTAS.

If Logic was having the issues described by the previous poster, then something was not set up right, hardware conflict or user error. I have mixed huge projects in Live since Logic 6 and then 7,8 and now 9 and never experienced those issues.

I agree with you that PTLE/MP could and should be improved because the big studio market (and especially the mid sized studio) is shrinking under the recession and music piracy, coupled with the home studio revolution (so fewer people are going to project studios or mid sized studios to record demos, when they can do it at home for less than a couple of thousand dollars investment). Digidesign can't afford to ignore the home market and their LE/MP product is easily trumped in terms of features and flexibility right now.

if Steinberg changed Nuendo's name to 'PRO - NENDO' I bet they would see a huge upswing in sales. Damned Digidesign, the one thing they got so right was the name, because to most goobers on the street 'PRO' makes it professional - so every other software must be AMATEUR. DOH! But it's so true. Most clients wouldn't know the difference if you had a Nuendo arrange and mixer view and told them it was protools, but if they caught wind they would think you were 'amateur'.

When you say Nuendo is commonly used in Nashville, I would take it as you mean a somewhat high percentage of users here are running Nuendo/cubase.....Simply not true. We have 100's and 100's of studios, if not thousands, and I very rarely do file exchanges with anyone in the "pro" market that needs me to make files that are compatible with their non-Pro-tools system. Pro-Tools is still the system used by almost everyone, and I'm talking HD here...There are a few very well respected individual users/ studios on Nuendo or Logic, but Digidesign is still making a lot of money off of Nashville pros.

[mbradzick]

Originally Posted by roostert

When you say Nuendo is commonly used in Nashville, I would take it as you mean a somewhat high percentage of users here are running Nuendo/cubase.....Simply not true. We have 100's and 100's of studios, if not thousands, and I very rarely do file exchanges with anyone in the "pro" market that needs me to make files that are compatible with their non-Pro-tools system. Pro-Tools is still the system used by almost everyone, and I'm talking HD here...There are a few very well respected individual users/ studios on Nuendo or Logic, but Digidesign is still making a lot of money off of Nashville pros.

Now I'm getting the info I was looking for!

[Matti]

Nuendo, Pyramix, Fairlight, Sadie and some others are used for heavy post prod around the world and are compatible with Protools at warying degree, Protools being the problem if any. You can transfer your tracs raw or edited as stems/ invidual tracs to another system if needed

Matti

[joeq]

Originally Posted by Mayor999

So i just recorded 8 mics of drums (same performance) into both PTHD & into Cubase.

Multed right after preamps into converters.

192's for PT & Apogee Ensemble for Cubase. Both clocked internally.

Which one is Cubase? Which one sounds "better"?

You mean which one is the Apogee.

Test-1
134379
Test-2
134380

in the future, you should make 2 or 3 copies of each file, post them all and ask "which 3 are the Cubase?"

because anybody can have one lucky guess.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

Oh I wasn't questioning your tests at all. PT just sounds different to me than Cubase and DP (the only other DAWs I have experience with), and . I don't know Logic.

See this is where you lose me. I do not hear a difference between DAWs and I have seen no theory or double-blinded listening experiment result to convince me that anyone else can consistently do so either.

But if I DID have a preference, if I thought for one second that DAW 'XXX' sounded better, if I HEARD something and could honestly say "it's definitely not psychological", well I would buy that DAW tomorrow and would not be making posts asking the Gearslutz what DAW I should buy.

[LQM]

I never said PTHD rigs weren't being used by a large % of Nashville studios or weren't the majority tool, just that there are a sizeable minority which run Nuendo and there are more places offering both. Steinberg themselves had an article on their website a while back about it.

It's better for the world to have competition, so the more alternatives the better. Digi's monopoly isn't healthy and it would do some of you engineers some good to learn some other systems and expand your skills. Could be fun too, after all, even steak gets boring if you eat it for every meal ...

[mbradzick]

I just want to reiterate to the participants of this thread that this isn't a pissing contest. I'm not saying "pt sounds bad" or "pt is bad" in any way. I work DAILY with both, and I like both. Do I think PT and Cubase sound different? Yes. Is the difference subtle? Yes. Would I get PTHD if money wasn't an issue? PROBABLY! I use Cubase at home and PTLE at "work." I'll tell you, if it weren't for PTLE8's added tracks plus the Musican's Toolkit or whatever our lives would be HELL. It was when we were on 7.4.2.

For composers who use a lot of MIDI I still say Cubase is a better choice, but I'm not gonna split hairs over the audio quality cause it's kind of a moot point for me. My issue was the fact that native processing continues to power ahead cheaper/faster/better/more each year.

I wanted to measure the temp of the DAW industry cause my "boss" is debating what steps to take in terms of upping the ante on our DAW hardware. I know one thing, is that saying you have PTHD is like saying you have a Lancer Evolution instead of an Eclipse. FEEL ME??

[mbradzick]

Originally Posted by joeq

But if I DID have a preference, if I thought for one second that DAW 'XXX' sounded better

(respectfully) this is where you lose me. It ain't about that, and I'm not gonna get into it with you.

[Teletude]

Originally Posted by herecomesyourman

Also the RME uses the same AKAI chip as a pro tools HD converter...so...they are similar in some respects. Which is why it was the last converter selected for the tests. (Bear in mind that I was working on a company dime, and had to justify expenditures with documentation, I wasn't just doing a shootout to satiate my own curiosity)

If I'm not mistaken, so does MOTU and a number of others. I've been told there's actually only a handful of companies that manufacture these chips. The real differences are of course in the clocks, filters, and supporting analogue circuitry.

My point is this. I've got to believe that if ANY professional DAW out there (Cubase, Nuendo, Logic, ProTools, whatever) didn't pass digital audio bit for bit, we would have seen the empirical data ad nauseam. ESPECIALLY if the detractor was ProTools.

If fact, didn't Lynn Fuston and crew over at 3d Audio kind of prove this a few years back with their Awesome DAWsome experiment? That isn't to say that different DAW's with different pan laws would sound the same on all mixes. Nor would a 32 bit float mixer give the same results as a 48 bit fixed on all material regardless of dynamic range (or even each time you hit play). I'm just saying, isn't it a bit myopic to overlook the converters as the primary source of the differing timbres? Not saying they're not there; just discredit where discredit is due.

Maybe I'm just one of the huddled masses. The last DAW I used before PT was Opcode Studio Vision. And I bought it new if that tells you how long ago that was. I will agree on this though, the Radar converters do sound especially nice. There is something intrinsically natural to their sound.

[James Lugo]

I don't think anything will ever touch protools, not at least in my lifetime. In the world I live in, pro music in LA, I don't personally work or know anyone on anything but MAC/Protools. A lot of people I know are gearing up to upgrade next year to PT8 and the quad core intel mac. That rig will last at least 5 years if no more.

I installed PT 8 in a new quad core with 8 gigs of ram this past week, pretty slammin'!

[mbradzick]

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

I don't think anything will ever touch protools, not at least in my lifetime. In the world I live in, pro music in LA, I don't personally work or know anyone on anything but MAC/Protools. A lot of people I know are gearing up to upgrade next year to PT8 and the quad core intel mac. That rig will last at least 5 years if no more.

I installed PT 8 in a new quad core with 8 gigs of ram this past week, pretty slammin'!

If PTHD is still the way to go then I will report as such. I just have happened to attend a meeting of LA pros that expressed concern for Digi's well being, and I wanted to give it the old GS hammering.

And BTW James, you were right. Stuff that's tracked right kicks ass mixed ITB. I've done it...finally!

[nept]

Originally Posted by Mayor999

So i just recorded 8 mics of drums (same performance) into both PTHD & into Cubase.

Multed right after preamps into converters.

192's for PT & Apogee Ensemble for Cubase. Both clocked internally.

Which one is Cubase? Which one sounds "better"?

Test-1
Attachment 134379
Test-2
Attachment 134380

I love it

just move it to the dac-shootouts

[James Lugo]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

If PTHD is still the way to go then I will report as such. I just have happened to attend a meeting of LA pros that expressed concern for Digi's well being, and I wanted to give it the old GS hammering.

Michael personally I wouldn't give these types of subjects so much energy, I've noticed these types of threads from you over the past year or so. It's the rebel thing and I can dig it, trust me I know all about being a rebel my family was straight lace civic minded folks and I had hair down to my ass. I mean if you don't like Digi use Cubase or Nuendo or Logic or whatever. Whenever a company is so widely used as Digi is there's always people that hate it. Always has always will be. Make music.

[mbradzick]

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

Michael personally I wouldn't give these types of subjects so much energy, I've noticed these types of threads from you over the past year or so. It's the rebel thing and I can dig it, trust me I know all about being a rebel my family was straight lace civic minded folks and I had hair down to my ass. I mean if you don't like Digi use Cubase or Nuendo or Logic or whatever. Whenever a company is so widely used as Digi is there's always people that hate it. Always has always will be. Make music.

Hehe...I got you man. I guess I do have a bit of that spark, but here's my history behind Cubase at least:

I worked for Spectrasonics (Stylus RMX/Trilogy/Atmosphere etc) right out of USC, and I was a die-hard PT user. Started with Pro Tools "Free" on OS 9. Built PT audio/visual workstations at the sound dept of the film school.

My immediate boss at Spectra, who's a brilliant Jazz musician, was using Cubase on a PC, and recording amazing sounding Jazz records. We fenagled a deal and got a couple boxes of Cubase. After feeling what it's like to have unlimited (at least not company-sponsored limited) tracks running native, I didn't look back. This was in 2004/2005, and I was on a 002.

I won't pretend I've been a pro engineer for very long. In fact, all I work with are 003s, but the guy I work for has been heavily contemplating going HD. Since I like to research my ass off, I've been telling him what I've been hearing and reading from pros as well as GS folk. His background is 2-inch tape/LA's best studios/Neve and SSLs to ADATS to DP and now PTLE. He's ready to invest in an upgrade and we're deciding where to go.

I've learned a lot from this thread, and ALWAYS a lot from this forum. I guess sometimes I can come off sounding lame or whatever, but I think that my posts get a little more objective and a little less frequent as my knowledge and experience grows. At least I hope so!!!!

My goal is definitely: less ego, more work, better results!

[herecomesyourman]

Originally Posted by Teletude

If I'm not mistaken, so does MOTU and a number of others. I've been told there's actually only a handful of companies that manufacture these chips. The real differences are of course in the clocks, filters, and supporting analogue circuitry.

My point is this. I've got to believe that if ANY professional DAW out there (Cubase, Nuendo, Logic, ProTools, whatever) didn't pass digital audio bit for bit, we would have seen the empirical data ad nauseam. ESPECIALLY if the detractor was ProTools.

If fact, didn't Lynn Fuston and crew over at 3d Audio kind of prove this a few years back with their Awesome DAWsome experiment? That isn't to say that different DAW's with different pan laws would sound the same on all mixes. Nor would a 32 bit float mixer give the same results as a 48 bit fixed on all material regardless of dynamic range (or even each time you hit play). I'm just saying, isn't it a bit myopic to overlook the converters as the primary source of the differing timbres? Not saying they're not there; just discredit where discredit is due.

Maybe I'm just one of the huddled masses. The last DAW I used before PT was Opcode Studio Vision. And I bought it new if that tells you how long ago that was. I will agree on this though, the Radar converters do sound especially nice. There is something intrinsically natural to their sound.

Cubase / Nuendo is closest to the Radar sound naturally not factoring converters in...the RME is closer to the HD system in specs / functionality than most.

I have also used the recent MOTU's in an another exhaustive test concerning preamps of all things (not for use in a recording studio) and found several flaws with how the Traveler in particular is constructed. The build quality is such that phantom power on those units isn't even a functional 48 volts. (I measured it with a volt meter...it's dangerously underpowered, and I'm still not sure how that one got off the production line) I've disected those units and they never made it to the table with comparing converters because quite simply put...they were completely lacking in all counts in terms of construction. The RME...love them or hate them...is built like a tank. Nothing by Motu feels like anything but a flimsy toy by comparison.

The RME paired with Cubase has been the mainstay of my studio for two and half years...I see no reason to change since I run a private studio and own a small indie label...I'm really my own boss anyways.

For technical gigs like MyStudio...doing this test inspired a lot of things...and more tests...and more questions...and so on.

[drBill]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

I just have happened to attend a meeting of LA pros that expressed concern for Digi's well being, and I wanted to give it the old GS hammering.

I've been hearing it since the day pro tools was invented. Seriously. Forget it. It's counter productive to moving ahead.

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

I don't think anything will ever touch protools

You're probably right James. It will take something seriously groundbreaking. (not a little faster, ADC, a little better looking, unlimited tracks, a little better sounding, a little cheaper, etc.) something like the difference between ADAT linear, and PT non-linear. Something SERIOUSLY different and ground breaking.

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

My goal is definitely: less ego, more work, better results!

That is the literal definition of HD.

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

I don't think anythinhttp://www.gearslutz.com/board/images/editor/attach.gifg will ever touch protools, not at least in my lifetime. In the world I live in, pro music in LA, I don't personally work or know anyone on anything but MAC/Protools. A lot of people I know are gearing up to upgrade next year to PT8 and the quad core intel mac. That rig will last at least 5 years if no more.

I installed PT 8 in a new quad core with 8 gigs of ram this past week, pretty slammin'!

Protools is the standard but is still not the fastest. Nuendo can do 3X the trackcount on a $500 dell?

I mixed 150 tracks Sunday on a stock dell in Nuendo, plugins on 75% of the channels, EQ on almost all. Look at the performance monitor it's at 60% CPU and only 35% Disk Usage? This is not to get into an argument, but I'm asking the question can a PT system of any kind do this for $3000? or any amount of money? I can do 250 -300 tracks at 96/32bit ITB with Nuendo and a cheapo PC

It's no longer a matter of taste issue or which DAW is the industry standard or most widely used.
It comes down to Cubase/Nuendo outperforms PTHD in all aspects CPU, HDD, GDI

Again not trying to get into the typical playground argument DAW A is better than DAW B
but these are facts are real and can PTHD compete? What kind of Hardare and Software does PT require to handle
250 tracks at 96/24 or 96/32? Like I said I got Nuendo up to 250 one time. I bet with some finessing and a faster PC
like a XEON and a 15k fibre drive I could squeeze 400 tracks. I have a 15k fibre at my studio. I did these 150 on my home internet machine?

Neunedo is gonna be tough to beat sorry to say from a performance standpoint. I'd love to see the PTHD put to the max
and compare them on raw performance only. Not based on end user preference, hype or market share.

Let's go boyz................... 150 tracks on a Dell inspiron 96/32 Waves and URS plugs on almost every channel. The drum tracks on this project each have 6 effect inserts filled. 2 Eqs, comp, limiter, reverb, and gate. All the gtrs bass and strings ahave 2-3 effects. There are 40 tracks of vocals all eq'ed with a comp , delay and verb on every channel.

Can HD do this in on a Dell Inspiron 3gig of ram 2.4ghz chip? with a 7200 SATA drive? I hope someone steps up I'd love to see
the results just for fun. Again this is not meant to be a race or battle. I'm just curious. Since all you ever hear is how great and popular PTHD is . But can it really hold up to Nuendo? I got similar a result last week with Cubase 4. 125 tracks multiple plugs on every channel. That's a $500 app. So $1000 to get that type of performance is gonna be a challenge for any other DAW.

End of this month (sept) I'm working on a project that has 125 -150 tracks of just BU vocals. This may top out at 200-225 tracks once I add the strings. Probably 50 string tracks usually do 25 with vienna and then 25 with the real players I'm not sure this dell can handle 225. My other PC with SCSI can. We'll see.

[mbradzick]

Ok I've created a monster apparently.

What I was really after was some info on whether or not PTHD would be a good investment for a growing studio. Not nuendo vs PT. I'm trying to help someone make an informed decision about where to go next.

Native daw or PTHD?
blu-Ray or hddvd?
DA88 or ADAT?

You gotta choose your formats wisely. Otherwise you're gonna own another doorstop.

My guy has a Peris rig sitting in a corner. Sounds great apparently. Who cares? I want to know if myspace is gonna rule forever or if facebook's gonna take it out (metaphorically)

I really do appologize if I sparked any fires. I just wanna do the right thing and conduct the necessary research. I may have learned more on GS about recording than my entire college education, but it didn't happen without a lot of questions.

[YetiHunter]

This thread is a better investment than all, here is your gold:

Low Resolution

[YetiHunter]

BTW, I'm not knocking the business; it's going to be a surefire success.

There used to be booths where you could cut your own phonograph; I always thought that such thing was a novel concept, and didn't get why no one had really tried that with video and/or modern audio recording media/medium.

Sure there were those "make your own video" stores in tourist trap areas, but this is significantly different concept, more akin to the phonograph booths.

[herecomesyourman]

Originally Posted by YetiHunter

This thread is a better investment than all, here is your gold:

Low Resolution

Thank you for the kind words. =)

It was a really long battle to get that darn Frankenstien monster to do what it does...I'm glad to have been a part of it. The people were all aces in their respective fields and work speaks for itself.

I loved every minute of it...even when I felt like crying from exhaustion.

[Guest]

Originally Posted by James 'LA' Lugo

Whenever a company is so widely used as Digi is there's always people that hate it. Always has always will be. Make music.

Hey City Boy "Jem E Logo"!

I don't think that's the reason.

I think Digidesign does have a monopoly and dictate the prices.
THAT's why they are hated. The same with Waves.
There's nothing wrong with their products.

I have HDIII and Logic Pro and I love Logic.
I can write and produce a hit song on Cubase, Logic, Digital Performer, Sonar, Live etc.
But if you work for clients you need PT and that's a pity in my opinion. Altough MW is a living proof that you can work without PT IF you really want.

I do think HD is overpriced especially if you take a look at Logic.
It's incredible what you get for 400 bucks. (Although I know the reason for this is because Apple wants to sell their computers) Most young guns start out
and stick with Logic these days. I think PT will stay the leader but Logic is getting a monster and maybe the thinking that PT is a must have will change.

Who knows... But one thing bugs me.

People defend their DAW to tooth and nail which is stupid.
We are the users and decide what we use.

I started out with Digital Performer moved to Cubase and then to HDIII and added Logic Pro later.

If I wouldn't have clients I would use Logic 9 and a 8-core Mac with Waves Native Platinum Bundle. No Powercore or UAD PCI because you need to buy them new with every change. That's why I think the WUP is still better than buying new hardware again and again.


Long Live Rock And Roll

[Bob Olhsson]

Most non-MIDI music people started out with tape, first used Pro Tools to comp and tune vocals with AutoTune and slowly migrated to recording entire projects as hard drive prices came down and input capability expanded.

Most of the people I know who own Nuendo are either high profile folks who were given a system by the developer or else it is the first DAW they've ever owned.

I'm not aware of very many people selling their big HD rigs and replacing them with Nuendo or anything else. In fact many are happily using PT version 7.3 and have no plans to even buy a newer version. It simply does the job for them.

[dukeorock]

Do you anticipate customers will even have anything to say about your DAW? Ours rarely ask...Are you concerned with guest engineers needing PT? That's a valid question I suppose.

I used to run an old PT TDM rig...when it came time for a change, for me the answer was so simple...with the money we saved by decking out a Nuendo rig, we were able to purchase more mics, pres, etc and wound up with a rig that sounded to my ears, better. Easy!

More people use PT, but then again, more people eat at McDonalds and think Jim Carey is funny

[Tony Shepperd]

Bill and Lugo, let me step in for 30 seconds and defend Michael on one point alone.
He was with a group of LA Pro's. In fact he was in a room with about 25 of them.
They were all at Tech Breakfast in Burbank at The Coral Cafe, two months ago.
So he's not just throwing around some gossipy "hear say".

Okay, that's the end of my defense.


Michael, how you made the leap from that conversation to Nuendo giving way to PTHD....
Man, I don't think Spiderman and Superman's strength combined could have made that leap.