Is there any reason to record a center signal in stereo?

puppee · 29th August 2009

If I am recording my synth which is a raw bass line(no fx) for example, is there any need to record it in stereo? I do notice that when I record it in mono, it sounds thinner compared to recording it in stereo! Why?

Is it just me, or is it the converters, preamp, etc that causes the bass to sound less big, thinner when recording it in mono or is there more to it?

Karloff70 · 29th August 2009

There's the basic function of our hearing, which makes only near sounds appear stereo and far away sounds automatically mono. So the amount of stereo width to a sound has an effect on your perception of closeness and therefore size. And on another angle, there's a difference mix wise, if you put a fat mono bass up the middle as opposed to put it down both sides, as putting it out to the sides leaves lots of room in the middle for vocals for example. Makes a different shape basically. Just depends on what shape you want to draw with the mix for whatever creative reason.

Silvertone · 29th August 2009

Best mixes I ever heard in my life were mixed to 3 track... no real need for the center channel but when it is there it is amazing!

dbbubba · 29th August 2009

Yeah, but mixing with the center channel in 5.1 surround is (or was) somewhat a point on contention among guys mixing pure music.

I did 5.1 mixes years ago and the center channel was odd sounding compared to mixing using the phantom center from a normal L/R mix.
When you used the center channel everything you put in it seemed separate from the L/R stereo field no matter what you did.
You could use it as a special effect and it definitely needed to be there for film mixes.
I was also mixing on a VERY nice and perfectly calibrated 5.1 system.

In film sound the center is mostly only dialog.
The music/score mixes are normal stereo L/R in 99.9% of released films.

I would suspect that the "why does the synth bass sound better as a stereo recording as opposed to mono recording" thing is either about level or if the synth itself is poting out a stereo (chorused?) signal.

Wayne · 29th August 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karloff70

.. And on another angle, there's a difference mix wise, if you put a fat mono bass up the middle as opposed to put it down both sides, as putting it out to the sides leaves lots of room in the middle for vocals for example. ..

I don't understand what you're getting at here. But I was also presuming a pure mono signal as in the OP's 'a raw bass line(no fx) for example'.

Karloff70 · 29th August 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne

I don't understand what you're getting at here. But I was also presuming a pure mono signal as in the OP's 'a raw bass line(no fx) for example'.

If you think of a mix as middle and sides and your vocal in in the middle, when you add a high energy sound like Bass in the middle, it will take more room from the vocal than if you have it out to both sides.

Wayne · 29th August 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karloff70

If you think of a mix as middle and sides and your vocal in in the middle, when you add a high energy sound like Bass in the middle, it will take more room from the vocal than if you have it out to both sides.

That's where I don't follow. Unless you are indeed meaning making it not mono, (or speaking of dedicated center channel monitor?) what the heck is 'out to both sides.

dbbubba · 30th August 2009

You can't have it out to both sides unless it is different in each side.
If it is the same signal applied to both L and R it will appear in the center.

Low end naturally reinforces when panned to the center.
It is part of how stereo works.

Low end sources have been historically paned to the center because in the days of vinyl the stylus would jump out of the groove or the groove would cut into the next layer if the bass was too strong in any one channel.

Because of these two things bass is usually panned to the center.

Generally a bass instrument will not compete for space with a vocal.

Karloff70 · 30th August 2009

I give in to technical reality. Bass is a bad example as indeed you want it in the middle and obviously it would have to be a true stereo (different sides) to get out of the middle.....sorry for the confusion.

robelmuzic · 30th August 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karloff70

There's the basic function of our hearing, which makes only near sounds appear stereo and far away sounds automatically mono. So the amount of stereo width to a sound has an effect on your perception of closeness and therefore size.

Now that's interesting.

Wayne · 30th August 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by robelmuzic

Now that's interesting.

Look at it as much the same way when you move away from close' to far' with an x/y pair, relative L/R movement (or difference) becomes smaller.

initialsBB · 30th August 2009

I can't see why you would ever record a synth in stereo unless you played it through an amp and mic'd that in stereo.

Aisle 6 · 30th August 2009

Quote:

Originally Posted by puppee

If I am recording my synth which is a raw bass line(no fx) for example, is there any need to record it in stereo? I do notice that when I record it in mono, it sounds thinner compared to recording it in stereo! Why?

Is it just me, or is it the converters, preamp, etc that causes the bass to sound less big, thinner when recording it in mono or is there more to it?

I would suggest that there are very few sounds on a modern record that need recording in a true stereo tracking form. Particularly not bass. Maybe the bass sample in your keyboard is a true stereo sound and requires L & R to create the finished sample. (Very strange though) This is why it may sound thinner out of only one channel. Bass gets more & more omni directional the lower it goes, so stereo is largely wasted on it anyway.

Kiwi · 30th August 2009

Understand the effect of "pan law" in your DAW or mixer.

If you record a synth bass with both L & R analog outputs, then two significant things happen:

1 - analog circuits are never identical. Most components have tolerances measured in percentages. Factor in a whole bunch of tolerances, and the signals L & R are very subtley different and may sound wider, and

2 - if you use two channels - lets say both sides peaking at -6 dBFS - each panned left & right as a stereo pair, then on playback you will have both D/A converters delivering that signal to your monitor amp.

If you record a synth bass with only input then the digital mixing that clones the track left & right makes bit for bit clones with no analog variation whatsoever, plus

Depending on the Pany Law rules hardwired or software coded & selected, when your mono track is centred left & right, it may not be as loud as the two seperate tracks driving each channel seperately.

The idea of Pan Law is to compensate for human perception of loudness as a signal is panned from left to centre to right. Hard left & hard right, the signal is being reproduced with only one speaker. Panned centre, both speakers get signal. IF they both got the same level signal when the track is panned to the centre, then the perception would be a 6dB boost in level when panned to the centre. To get around this, some mixers are wired to reduce the level when panned to the centre - allowing you to pan the level anywhere with no perceived increase in level. Software DAWs & mixers often give you the choice of Pan Law - typically 0dB, -3dB or -6dB. There is no industry standard default, so you need to find out what your DAW does, and decide what you want it to do.

I'm not saying this is what is happening in your case, but MAYBE ... you are just hearing a gain reduction that isn't apparant from fader levels when you are only using one mono track ...

Key · 30th August 2009

Eh if it's hitting two mics there will be a small delay from the synth to the stereo pair. Each mic will pick up different reflections from the room and the direct sound will arrive at different times to the two mics. Sticking a DI in the middle will not phase align with the miced signals so panning laws are thrown out the window at this point. Just set the stereo pair to whatever sits in the mix the best with the different panner laws. The stereo sort of becomes the reverb and the mono becomes the direct if you are using three mics or using two mics and a direct feed.
.

psycho_monkey · 30th August 2009

It's very likely that what the OP is hearing is a volume difference. There should be NO difference between recording a mono signal to one track and panning it central (out of both outputs), and recording the same signal to 2 tracks, and panning one hard left and one hard right, other than a volume difference (3dB I think).

What Karloff is alluding to is when something is actually stereo, not dual mono.

Key · 30th August 2009

If he is recording direct in I agree. If he is miking up a synth I do not agree.

29th August 2009	#1
puppee Gear maniac Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 223 Thread Starter	Is there any reason to record a center signal in stereo? If I am recording my synth which is a raw bass line(no fx) for example, is there any need to record it in stereo? I do notice that when I record it in mono, it sounds thinner compared to recording it in stereo! Why? Is it just me, or is it the converters, preamp, etc that causes the bass to sound less big, thinner when recording it in mono or is there more to it?

29th August 2009	#2
Karloff70 Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: london Posts: 5,871	There's the basic function of our hearing, which makes only near sounds appear stereo and far away sounds automatically mono. So the amount of stereo width to a sound has an effect on your perception of closeness and therefore size. And on another angle, there's a difference mix wise, if you put a fat mono bass up the middle as opposed to put it down both sides, as putting it out to the sides leaves lots of room in the middle for vocals for example. Makes a different shape basically. Just depends on what shape you want to draw with the mix for whatever creative reason. __________________ Compress everything so it's amplitude is basically smooth like a square. - Kupiti

29th August 2009	#3
Silvertone Lives for gear Join Date: May 2005 Location: Saratoga Springs, NY Posts: 2,127 1 Review written	Best mixes I ever heard in my life were mixed to 3 track... no real need for the center channel but when it is there it is amazing! __________________ Larry DeVivo Silvertone Mastering, Inc. 518-581-8141 www.silvertonemastering.com To see some of our work please click on any of the visual trailer montages located at... http://robertetoll.com/ (all music and sound effects were mastered by Silvertone Mastering).

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29th August 2009	#4
dbbubba Banned Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 7,099	Yeah, but mixing with the center channel in 5.1 surround is (or was) somewhat a point on contention among guys mixing pure music. I did 5.1 mixes years ago and the center channel was odd sounding compared to mixing using the phantom center from a normal L/R mix. When you used the center channel everything you put in it seemed separate from the L/R stereo field no matter what you did. You could use it as a special effect and it definitely needed to be there for film mixes. I was also mixing on a VERY nice and perfectly calibrated 5.1 system. In film sound the center is mostly only dialog. The music/score mixes are normal stereo L/R in 99.9% of released films. I would suspect that the "why does the synth bass sound better as a stereo recording as opposed to mono recording" thing is either about level or if the synth itself is poting out a stereo (chorused?) signal.

30th August 2009	#8
dbbubba Banned Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 7,099	You can't have it out to both sides unless it is different in each side. If it is the same signal applied to both L and R it will appear in the center. Low end naturally reinforces when panned to the center. It is part of how stereo works. Low end sources have been historically paned to the center because in the days of vinyl the stylus would jump out of the groove or the groove would cut into the next layer if the bass was too strong in any one channel. Because of these two things bass is usually panned to the center. Generally a bass instrument will not compete for space with a vocal.

30th August 2009	#12
initialsBB Lives for gear Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: LA Posts: 2,113	I can't see why you would ever record a synth in stereo unless you played it through an amp and mic'd that in stereo.

30th August 2009	#14
Kiwi Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 2,612	Understand the effect of "pan law" in your DAW or mixer. If you record a synth bass with both L & R analog outputs, then two significant things happen: 1 - analog circuits are never identical. Most components have tolerances measured in percentages. Factor in a whole bunch of tolerances, and the signals L & R are very subtley different and may sound wider, and 2 - if you use two channels - lets say both sides peaking at -6 dBFS - each panned left & right as a stereo pair, then on playback you will have both D/A converters delivering that signal to your monitor amp. If you record a synth bass with only input then the digital mixing that clones the track left & right makes bit for bit clones with no analog variation whatsoever, plus Depending on the Pany Law rules hardwired or software coded & selected, when your mono track is centred left & right, it may not be as loud as the two seperate tracks driving each channel seperately. The idea of Pan Law is to compensate for human perception of loudness as a signal is panned from left to centre to right. Hard left & hard right, the signal is being reproduced with only one speaker. Panned centre, both speakers get signal. IF they both got the same level signal when the track is panned to the centre, then the perception would be a 6dB boost in level when panned to the centre. To get around this, some mixers are wired to reduce the level when panned to the centre - allowing you to pan the level anywhere with no perceived increase in level. Software DAWs & mixers often give you the choice of Pan Law - typically 0dB, -3dB or -6dB. There is no industry standard default, so you need to find out what your DAW does, and decide what you want it to do. I'm not saying this is what is happening in your case, but MAYBE ... you are just hearing a gain reduction that isn't apparant from fader levels when you are only using one mono track ...

30th August 2009	#15
Key Gear addict Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 311	Eh if it's hitting two mics there will be a small delay from the synth to the stereo pair. Each mic will pick up different reflections from the room and the direct sound will arrive at different times to the two mics. Sticking a DI in the middle will not phase align with the miced signals so panning laws are thrown out the window at this point. Just set the stereo pair to whatever sits in the mix the best with the different panner laws. The stereo sort of becomes the reverb and the mono becomes the direct if you are using three mics or using two mics and a direct feed. .

30th August 2009	#16
psycho_monkey Gear Guru Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: London Posts: 13,459	It's very likely that what the OP is hearing is a volume difference. There should be NO difference between recording a mono signal to one track and panning it central (out of both outputs), and recording the same signal to 2 tracks, and panning one hard left and one hard right, other than a volume difference (3dB I think). What Karloff is alluding to is when something is actually stereo, not dual mono.