Dealing w/rejection! Mics that isolate well when recording whole band in one room?

[AjD]

What microphones would you recommend for recording a full band live - doing full band takes - when using only one studio tracking room?

That's the question.

No ISO rooms for drums or amps. Everyone in the same room.

In my humble home "producer's studio" set-up, recording a full band completely live has always been my goal. I actually have access to ISO rooms, but I want things as close to a band's rehearsal set-up as possible. In my experience, the takes are way better that way.

The good news is, with my new room (at the new house), I think I'm close to attaining my goal. My main room is about 500 sq. ft., well-treated (absorbers and bass traps), and I'll soon have a full complement of well-made baffle screens to split up the group (in the same room! of course - picture the stones in that late '70s Paris warehouse, if you need a mental image - ok, it's much smaller than that, but now you got an image).

So what mics? I'm looking for really decent rejection to minimize bleed - tracks will be used later as a foundation for overdubbing.

Here's the band:

A rock drummer (5 piece kit).
Electric guitarist (Tele thru small lo-watt tube amp, perhaps a Champ).
Electric bassist (Precision thru Ampeg B-15, low to moderate volume).
Acoustic guitarist (Martin D-28).
Singer.

Adam

[Jamstudio]

Just do like you always do, just watch the phase and you'll be fine essp. on moderate volume.
In stead of insisting on to minimize bleed, you could use the bleed as room mics
eg: your guitar mic's doubles as drum room mic , it is possible just some critical placement
offcourse when you wan't to retrack somethink in the 'live' tracks this could be prolematic

Good luck

[jdunn]

Dealing with rejection is tough for sure! When a girl turns me down, I usually cower in the corner while asking for a cell phone to call my shrink. Then I get real drunk.

[RoundBadge]

Sm 57's close are pretty good in a pinch
sennheiser 441's are really good for iso on some things..although not a fav of mine sonically,but on occasion ...toms,hat,etc.
but yeah,check phase and use your ears first.
gobos are pretty easy to build ...even moving blankets on mic stands etc are good to have around[cheap too]

[Midlandmorgan]

With careful application of cardiod null points, just about any mic works at this. I've done quite a few "full band at once" things in the past few months, and (like you said) using small amps, combined with null point consideration and a well placed GOBO or two, you can get great results...I am still a huge fan of condensors (SM7, SM57, RE15/16, PL6, etc), regardless of all at once or track by track...

Arrangement of instruments in the room also is a good method - example: where the bass amp nulls out, place a differently voiced intrument there (the Champ, for example...) In this kind of session, you may wish to dispense with headphones and just let everyone kind mix themselves in the room as well.

Although its reported all over the place that the same principals apply to singers in the same room, I've never had any real success with it - and usually have them overdub.

Of course it helps not to have preamp gains set so hot you can hear stomachs growling...

[allbaldo]

I record in this way quite a bit, and I record mostly rock/punk music. This may sound crazy, but I tend to crank the amps up pretty loud. When I don't, I get more leakage from the drums....the cymbals mostly. If I get the amps pretty loud it seems to "blow out" the rest of the insruments. The little bits ot leakage that are left sort of glue the band together. If the band are good players, this method works really well, and if they aren't very good players, you can end up with a real mess.

[AjD]

Thanks, good stuff, keep it comin.

(One thing I've noticed - my Oktava Russian MK012, cardioid capsule, is wonderful at rejecting most everything except what's *right* in front of it. My similarly sized AKG blueline - also a small diaphraghm cardioid condensor - is not. )

Adam

[wallace]

The Microtech Geffell M940 is pretty good at rejecting most of the signal, save about 90 degrees.

[warhead]

The CAD M179 is a tight mic, the E/V ND468 is a VERY tight dynamic, 57's seem pretty tight...

War

[AjD]

Warren, thanks for the reply. In my example (first post), what source(s) would you use that EV ND468 on? (vox?)

Adam

[songisking]

I cut almost every band live in the same room. First off, I use an RE15 for the vocalist. When he leans in tight you get a nice smooth vocal sound but no drastic proximity bump in the lows. When he pulls off mic, the room doesn't rush up in between lines, as the mic has very little "reach."
I use the super-card N/Dym 408As on toms, but the rest of the drum mics are pretty standard fare. I put the kit at the far end of the room with a gobo ring around it, overheads somewhat low.
At the other end of the room, each player has a gobo'd off cubicle so that they can stand in front of their amp and leave the headphones off if they want.
The vocal mic is usually towards the amp end of the room facing away from the drums. The exception to this set-up would be the acoustic guitarist, who I'll usually move into the control room if he's recording along with amplified players. Sometimes having him play facing a gobo with a 414 in fig 8 will null out enough of the room to get a keeper, but sometimes not...

[dokushoka]

km184 and beyer m201

[Jetblack]

I just finished tracking a band (playing traditional Eastern European Jewsih music) that insisted for the most part to play all together in the same room. The instruments were violin, upright bass, ac gtr, clarinet, saz, tar and vocals. We did an initial setup using tight dynamic cardioid mics to minimize bleed. Honestly, the mics were not doing the instruments justice, so I decided to start all over and use my ribbons and condensers (a few in omni) and worked with the bleed. The results were awesome due mainly to the fact that the musicians all are really good players and can balance one another out volume wise, so bleed was a plus. Phase was a nightmare but we eventually worked it all out (thank you ibp!).
Hope this helps.

[warhead]

Originally Posted by AjD

Warren, thanks for the reply. In my example (first post), what source(s) would you use that EV ND468 on? (vox?)

Adam

it can indeed be a very decent vocal mic, and is great on guitar cabs and will essentially completely cut out the rest of the room if the amp is mic'd pretty close and is putting out some decent volume itself. VERY tight mic, not talked about much.

The low end response of the mic is very proximity dependent, you can work it very close without an overly exaggerated bottom in my experience. That's why I dig it on drums too.

War

[Bob Olhsson]

The Beyer M-88 does the best job on vocals in the same room with drums that I've ever heard.

[jdunn]

I wish I had some of those Beyers. I have a pair of M500's though. The M500 is a hypercardioid ribbon, so it has about the tightest pattern of any ribbon mic I can think of.

Also, nobody has mentioned the EV RE20. Do you find that they have too much reach or too wide of a pattern? I find them to be a good sounding dynamic mic on a variety of sources.

[Drumsound]

As Bob mentioned M88s have great rejection. Beyer TGX 50 is pretty good and the 421 the EV 408/468.

With decent gobos, even packing blankets or used office dividers you can isolate pretty well.

[AjD]

Yeah, I'm in the midst of a major DIY absorber/gobo build. There's sawdust and fiberglass everywhere. They're coming out great, should do the trick. I may post some pics when it's all done.

That Beyer M88 is sounding like the ticket for vocals. Where's a good place to get one? My rudimentary Google search is coming up dry.

Adam