how to sample a piano to create a librairy

[Led]

HI, I haven't done pianos but I have dome drums and just used my main session drummer to do the levels from softest to loudest. I then edited them and decided on the level by ear, as when you get to the top of the dynamic scale the level can stay the same but thetimbre changes.
Any decent player should be able to get you 16 levels on the piano.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by tenkas

Let say you want to create 16 velocity layers, do you have to use a machine that will throw equal force on the piano or you just ask a pianist to play all keys one by one going into 16 velocity states?

As Led said, there's no getting around having someone actually play the instrument. But I think 16 velocity levels is overkill for a piano. I have a bunch of sampled pianos, and one of my favorites has only one (loudest) level. All the softer levels are created inside the playback engine by applying a gentle 6 dB per octave low-pass filter with a varying cutoff frequency. I'm not saying that one level is ideal! But if your preferred sample playback engine offers filters, you can easily get by with maybe four sets of samples. As you program the sound set you'll still create 16 levels, but use the filter to soften up the sound on the lower levels within each sample. Otherwise you'll be working on this for three years!

--Ethan

[tenkas]

Thanks Ethan,

By the way, what is this sampled piano you are talking about?

[TheEqualizer]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

As Led said, there's no getting around having someone actually play the instrument.
--Ethan

Not true. Think different.

[Led]

Originally Posted by TheEqualizer

Not true. Think different.

Do you mean use one of those birds on the stand that keeps bending down to drink from a glass of water?

[AZeitung]

VSL has a video on Youtube somewhere on how they sample pianos for their libraries.

[lanyee]

That's an undertaking and half. Good luck buddy, let us know how it turns out.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by tenkas

By the way, what is this sampled piano you are talking about?

It's from the Fluid SoundFont developed by Frank Wen. He set up a sequence to play each note at full velocity through a Yamaha PF P-200. So it's not even a real piano, but one that was already sampled. However, the Yamaha's samples are very good. I have the earlier PF P-100, and I recorded a commercial piano and cello CD using this Yamaha sampled piano. I imagine the Yamaha is set up the same, with only one sample per note using filters to simulate softer note strikes.

Anyway, once Frank had all the wave files, he lined them up to the key notes in one velocity "layer." Then he duplicated that layer a dozen or so times, with each softer layer having a slightly lower filter cutoff frequency. So when you play with a velocity of 30, it's the same samples as when you play at 127, but filtered to sound less harsh. It's surprisingly realistic, at least as budget sample sets go.

--Ethan

[Bobo09]

i know with most samplers you can record a single note and pitch it up and down a keyboard at all octaves but i also know it isnt very efficient since it shortens the notes at higher octaves and lengthens the notes at lower ones. so to get a quality sampled piano do i need to record every single note at several velocities or is recording each octave of C enough to compensate for lack of quality?

I'm looking to start a sound design website mostly for reason refills but i also want to sample some of my hardware instruments such as the roland fantom, microkorg, and my electribes

any advice? thanks to anyone who replies!

[kennybro]

Originally Posted by Led

Do you mean use one of those birds on the stand that keeps bending down to drink from a glass of water?

You gotta embrace the options

[charlieclouser]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

As Led said, there's no getting around having someone actually play the instrument. But I think 16 velocity levels is overkill for a piano. I have a bunch of sampled pianos, and one of my favorites has only one (loudest) level. All the softer levels are created inside the playback engine by applying a gentle 6 dB per octave low-pass filter with a varying cutoff frequency. I'm not saying that one level is ideal! But if your preferred sample playback engine offers filters, you can easily get by with maybe four sets of samples. As you program the sound set you'll still create 16 levels, but use the filter to soften up the sound on the lower levels within each sample. Otherwise you'll be working on this for three years!

--Ethan

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

It's from the Fluid SoundFont developed by Frank Wen. He set up a sequence to play each note at full velocity through a Yamaha PF P-200. So it's not even a real piano, but one that was already sampled. However, the Yamaha's samples are very good. I have the earlier PF P-100, and I recorded a commercial piano and cello CD using this Yamaha sampled piano. I imagine the Yamaha is set up the same, with only one sample per note using filters to simulate softer note strikes.

Anyway, once Frank had all the wave files, he lined them up to the key notes in one velocity "layer." Then he duplicated that layer a dozen or so times, with each softer layer having a slightly lower filter cutoff frequency. So when you play with a velocity of 30, it's the same samples as when you play at 127, but filtered to sound less harsh. It's surprisingly realistic, at least as budget sample sets go.

--Ethan

[greatgreatriver]

I think it's great! You can carry your piano inside a usb memory!

[Liquid360]

Originally Posted by tenkas

I would like to know how these guys at garritan or synthogy do to sample their pianos. I would like to create some free samples of different pianos and I would be excited to know what are the technologies involved. Let say you want to create 16 velocity layers, do you have to use a machine that will throw equal force on the piano or you just ask a pianist to play all keys one by one going into 16 velocity states?

Hope this is clear....!!!

Your microphone technique, quality of microphone(s), quality of piano and quality of room you record it in are all much more important than how many "velocity levels" you sample. 16 is is a waste of RAM and HD space. Just give me a GREAT sounding piano with as FEW samples as possible...

I mean really, if you "love" the piano then go buy a damn piano.

[loopy]

Originally Posted by Liquid360

Your microphone technique, quality of microphone(s), quality of piano and quality of room you record it in are all much more important than how many "velocity levels" you sample. 16 is is a waste of RAM and HD space. Just give me a GREAT sounding piano with as FEW samples as possible...

I mean really, if you "love" the piano then go buy a damn piano.

You might want to take a look at PianoTeq.
It uses modeled pianos and has zero samples

Pianoteq - Virtual piano, physically modelled acoustic and electric pianos

[MadforBrad]

harder than you might think. Sampling just 1 note without accounting for all the physics going on when you are playing may notes at the same time will give your piano a rather artificial sound. There is quite a bit of programming after the initial recordings and I think you would have to be rather adept at physical modelling to get things sounding somewhat real.

[Liquid360]

Originally Posted by MadforBrad

harder than you might think. Sampling just 1 note without accounting for all the physics going on when you are playing may notes at the same time will give your piano a rather artificial sound. There is quite a bit of programming after the initial recordings and I think you would have to be rather adept at physical modelling to get things sounding somewhat real.

Indeed. "Sympathetic resonances" come from all the strings even when they are damped, and especially when they are not. Very difficult to program, except as an ambient background layer(s).