difference in using an insert or using output of preamp

[SANDS]

Hey all, I was hoping you could shed some light on this topic.

What is the difference of using an external compressor on the insert of something (mixer, audio interface),compared to that of something without an insert point.

I was wondering while looking at the Echo audiofire 8 and the audiofire 12.

The 8 has insert points for channels one and two. The 12 has 12 ins and outs, no inserts. but couldn't the outs work for that too on the 12?

I currently have an Apogee Duet that I run with a Neve pre. I would like to stick an external comp after the pre since I have no insert points, will this work the same as having an insert point like the audiofire 8 or the Ensemble has?

[Space Nugget]

If I understand what youre asking correctly, heres the difference:

Using an effect as an insert allows you to record a signal and then tweak your effect as it plays back real time.

If you go the other route you described, for example: Bass into a comp then into the interface/DAW, whatever you record youre stuck with. You wouldnt be able to change effect settings, because the track was recorded with the effect.

Doing what you describe with an external comp, all I could suggest is that you have your comp set up the way you want before you record. I have the Ensemble and use the inserts all the time, but I doubt what you are talking about will work the same.

[Led]

Hi, using an insert (although it depends where that insert point is in the circuit) means that the level you are sending to the insert effect stays the same no matter what you do with the fader. Alternatively, if you plug into a compressor after a mic pre, the more you turn up the gain, the more level that goes to the compressor, and therefore you get more compression. Neither way is better, they both have their applications.
2 scenarios -
1. On a console you put the comp on an insert and it's pre fader. As you fade the vocal down/up the amount of compression stays the same. Fader rides are more noticable because if you had the compressor after the fader the compressor will pull back the level as you push the fader up.
(there is more to this but it's the simple explanation)
2. Recording vocals mic pre patched into compressor rather than on insert. Now as you ride the vocal up and down the comp reacts less because when the singer sings loud you pull the fader back and less level actually hits the comp. This is a lot smoother than putting the comp on an insert and stting and forgetting.

Hope that helps rather than confuses...

[SANDS]

Cool,

I was wondering because all I have at the moment is the Duet and it has only two in and two out, no inserts.

I currently moved to a new place where I can set up my drums and I'm looking into a new i/o for drum tracking. I think I'll probably keep my Duet around for other things. I really enjoy how fast I work using it.

I tried doing just a two mic drum recording and it works well with certain things, but for more rock sounding stuff the snare and kick suffer. I actually mixed in kick and snare I recorded individually, but for rolls and such it didn't sound right. I would really like two more channels. So I've been looking at the audiofire 8, 12 and the Metric Halo 2882. I'm thinking since I don't have alot of external gear the Metric Halo would work very well. The Ensemble was also a consideration since it has insert points on the first channels. I was wondering what would be a advantage to having an insert point.

[SANDS]

Originally Posted by Led

Hi, using an insert (although it depends where that insert point is in the circuit) means that the level you are sending to the insert effect stays the same no matter what you do with the fader. Alternatively, if you plug into a compressor after a mic pre, the more you turn up the gain, the more level that goes to the compressor, and therefore you get more compression. Neither way is better, they both have their applications.
2 scenarios -
1. On a console you put the comp on an insert and it's pre fader. As you fade the vocal down/up the amount of compression stays the same. Fader rides are more noticable because if you had the compressor after the fader the compressor will pull back the level as you push the fader up.
(there is more to this but it's the simple explanation)
2. Recording vocals mic pre patched into compressor rather than on insert. Now as you ride the vocal up and down the comp reacts less because when the singer sings loud you pull the fader back and less level actually hits the comp. This is a lot smoother than putting the comp on an insert and stting and forgetting.

Hope that helps rather than confuses...

Thanks that helps, I can think of many situations already where an insert point would have been nice to have.

[Ca$h Marty]

I have a similar question on this topic. I have a ISA 428 preamp which has an XLR output, TRS insert send. I am currently using the TRS insert send as the output due to the fact that I have a TRS patch bay (and way more TRS cables). I do not use the insert return or XLR output.

Are there any downsides to this?

[Space Nugget]

Originally Posted by Ca$h Marty

I have a similar question on this topic. I have a ISA 428 preamp which has an XLR output, TRS insert send. I am currently using the TRS insert send as the output due to the fact that I have a TRS patch bay (and way more TRS cables). I do not use the insert return or XLR output.

Are there any downsides to this?

The insert send youre using as the output is going into the patchbay? If not what is the Send connected to?

[Led]

The insert on the ISA is most likely unbalanced. It's fine for short cable runs but for longer runs you may pick up some noise. It is also most likely lower in level than the XLR output.

[Space Nugget]

Originally Posted by SANDS

The Ensemble was also a consideration since it has insert points on the first channels.

I cant speak for the metric Halo but I have the ensemble...
The good thing about the ensemble, in my opinion, is instead of using the inserts on the first two channels, I use the balanced analog Inputs and Outputs to feed outboard gear. I dont know what DAW you use, but Logic has an In/Out utility Plug for this specific purpose which I use quite a bit with zero latency.

I would imagine most interfaces have multiple inputs/outputs you can configure to use outboard gear. You said you dont have a lot, and I dont really either (1 comp and a 2 channel EQ) but its good to have the I/Os for future expansion. If you eventually get so much stuff you run out of I/Os you can get a patchbay.

[Space Nugget]

Originally Posted by Led

The insert on the ISA is most likely unbalanced. It's fine for short cable runs but for longer runs you may pick up some noise. It is also most likely lower in level than the XLR output.

Thank you for that...I was thinking about this and something didnt add up. A single TRS insert (tip send, ring return if I am not mistaken), is essentially just 2 unbalanced connections housed in one cable, with the signals moving in opposite directions (correct me if im wrong about that)
So the Send would be unbalanced.

[Ca$h Marty]

The insert sends and returns on the ISA 428 are balanced with dedicated TRS jacks for the send and return. So I guess my question is, would there be any difference in using the balanced XLR output or the balanced TRS insert send?

Thanks!