To Produce Or Not to Produce

[ampexfanatic]

I have been considering the idea of producing artists as a full time job. I have experience as an engineer, but now I want to start working with artists in a more start to finish type of way. I am starting to learn, however, that convincing artists that it is worth their while to spend the extra cash to record at a good studio is a whole different problem. Is there anyone else that has run into this? How do you deal with it if your artist wants to go to a studio that you know sucks?

[rack gear]

I'd make sure I still get my points.

[los marbles]

That's a weird one. I would say that your artist HAS to trust you and you HAVE to be right.

I assume the artist want to save some $ by going to the cheaper studio. The only thing to do is weigh it out and do what's best for the project.

If the artist can't afford the better place, then there's no decision, you have to make a good record in the cheaper place. Rent a few pieces of gear, do what you have to...

If the artist can afford the better studio it but doesn't see the need...but you know it will make a better record, and it will pay off in the end, then you have to convince them that it WILL pay off in the end.

For example, if the artist wants radio play and the polished sound needed is easier/quicker to attain a the better studio, tell them so. They may actually save some $.(and maybe sell more records)

Curious tho: why would an artist want to go to a studio that sucks? Are they friends with the engineer? price? or do they not know it sucks. Is there are reason that you know of why they can't get their work done there, that they are not aware of? Make them aware!

They have to have faith in your decisions as a producer...and your decisions have to be correct on these matters.

[Mojo]

I'm with marbles. As a producer, your job is to explain to her why her choice sucks, and to do so as diplomatically as possible, cuz you probably want to avoid a situation down the road where an interviewer asks why she chose the studio she ended up in and she says, "My producer Ampexfanatic said Abbey Road sucked".

Perhaps you could obtain examples of recordings produced by the studio she's interested in and the facility of your choice and allow her to make the decision. You might also express your concern that you might have difficulty getting great performances from the musicians in a particular room, due to the shabby surroundings and gloomy atmosphere. (though it might be just the thing if you're doing an industrial metal album) You ought to be able to influence an artist without appearing to dictate to them. (unless that's the only means to produce a great recording with a particular artist)

The artist is in charge of the art, as producer, you're in charge of logistics, as far as they're concerned. Still, I think it's okay for a producer to have an agenda so long as it's compatible with that of the artist and whoever pays for the sessions.

[picksail]

Producing has very little in common with engineering.
They are vastly different occupations.

Also the "point system" doesn't really translate into significant profits.
At least compared with songwriting/publishing.

[RainbowStorm]

Originally Posted by ampexfanatic

I have been considering the idea of producing artists as a full time job. I have experience as an engineer, but now I want to start working with artists in a more start to finish type of way. I am starting to learn, however, that convincing artists that it is worth their while to spend the extra cash to record at a good studio is a whole different problem. Is there anyone else that has run into this? How do you deal with it if your artist wants to go to a studio that you know sucks?

As a producer you are the boss. The whole project relies on the quality of your decision making. You are the one that knows what a great listening experience is and how to produce such a thing.

[15ips]

you have no idea what a producer even does, your not capable.

[rack gear]

Originally Posted by picksail

Also the "point system" doesn't really translate into significant profits.
At least compared with songwriting/publishing.

fair enough, good distinction.

get some co-writing credits and some publishing.

however, none the less, I don't know of anyone who is letting go of their points either... blue sky as it may be.

[Bob Olhsson]

Assuming you are utilizing most of a studio's capability, I've almost always found that it costs far more to use an inadequate studio. What could be done in three hours in a $60 an hour room can require a couple days in a $30 an hour room.

[Jules]

Originally Posted by ampexfanatic

I am starting to learn, however, that convincing artists that it is worth their while to spend the extra cash to record at a good studio is a whole different problem. Is there anyone else that has run into this? How do you deal with it .... ?

As a deal getting demo guy I had to deal with this a lot.

I would shake down bands to get as much as I could out of them for recording budget.

That was a thankless task most times, rarely was I thanked 'hey, thanks for getting us to find that extra $1,000, much appreciated.." but sometimes bands did actually appreciate not doing just another rushed demo..

So its all rather an uphill struggle!

Good luck!

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by 15ips

you have no idea what a producer even does, your not capable.

how do you work that one out?

[Shai An]

The only way to make it in this climate is to have your own studio. The idea that unsigned bands will pay for a studio (whether it's a quality one or not), then pay you on top of that, is pretty unrealistic. Your best bet is an all-in rate per song.

All this talk about points and publishing is pretty funny.

[allencollins]

Originally Posted by ampexfanatic

I have been considering the idea of producing artists as a full time job. I have experience as an engineer, but now I want to start working with artists in a more start to finish type of way. I am starting to learn, however, that convincing artists that it is worth their while to spend the extra cash to record at a good studio is a whole different problem. Is there anyone else that has run into this? How do you deal with it if your artist wants to go to a studio that you know sucks?

careful what you wish for. Ive been involved with this project for 6 months now. No matter how much he pays me it's a monkey on my back

Producing is easy if you are truly given full reign like the myth goes but when you're the producer and the artist can't let certain things go it causes problems. and you are not really in charge.

With this guy I'm producing at first he has adamant that he was gonna play gtr on the record. I said in a nice way 'no' your not good enough let's hire a pro First off this guy can sing his ass off. But gtr playing skills are just good enough to write a song and little more. I end up replacing half the parts later when he's not there. A lot of the parts are like intricate picking parts that if
he could actually play them they would be genius . But he just can't cut it 100%

But I have to replace them later since his timing is off and he picks a little on the heavy side so his intonation (he light strings ) he pulls the notes slightly sharp or flat. I can't as a producer let one mistake on anything I work on. it's an OCD thing but it's the way it is. So I have to play them and too be honest finger picking and picking is my weakness on gtr. So I have to spend some time practicing them on my own time. I could hire someone but I'm not paying and I
don't want him to know it not him playing.

Then tempos, what a nightmare. As a singer songwriter most of his tunes started of as folk songs so they were slower. But for this project he he wants drums and a rhythm section. Well luckily the drummer we hired is is a light player and perfect for a folky rock project. But the drummer and Myself worked out all these tempos that were naturally faster than what a sitting folk
singer is gonna play them at.

So at first the Guy heard the stuff and said 'it's way too fast'. I said this is pop radio tempo you want pop this is it. he's like no way. So I said do this, listen to the songs as a 'listener' not as the writer or the singer. He said ok. So he calls me back in a day or two and says 'You're right the tempos are good radio type tempos. Great I said!!

Then when he came down to sing them and he was so used to singing them at the lower speed he could get comfortable at the faster tempos. So that was a big issue.

finally strings? The reason he hired me since my specialty being a classical guy is string arrangements. Well what a nightmare, took me a month to satisfy him on the string parts. First worked them out midi with Vienna symphonic just to get a feel then I brought in my quartet to do them for real. He was happy with the final arrangements but we had to hedge a few ideas which pissed me off.
I thought you put me in charge of this stuff? 'I did he said but'...........

Long story long the guy was real happy with the result until I sent him the bill. I was more than fair and chopped off several hours but still he thought it was too high. Honestly I'm real cheap to begin with. All the producers in my area charge
35 -75 hr including studio time. I am lower since I don't need the money I kinda do it for fun.

Anyway unless you a truly the producer and anything you say goes things can get complex with certain people. Don't get me wrong
this last project musically and arrangement wise was very very full filling I even got a couple song writing credits and should see some royalties if all goes to plan. Sure it will only be $25 or $50 but it's the point. I can buy dinner with it maybe

Producing can be tough. Do you want to hear my story on the Metal band I produced last year? Going toe to toe with 5 metalheads their soundman and their manager?

I know you don't want to hear that story but thank gawd for melodyne and beatdetective the producers failsafe tool kit
when working with not so polished players. I opt for being the Engineer who suggests production ideas and helps produce?
It seems more civil this way being an unknown nobody producer

[Steffmo]

It sounds to me like THE ARTIST doesn't understand the producer role. I find that a lot of artists want the engineer to THINK he is procusinf, to get a better rate and other gavors, but when push comes to shove, they aren't all that interested in the input.

BUT its also important to make sure you aren't taking advantage of the client by trying to force the project into rooms YOU want to work in.

To me the best producers see wverything through the eyes of the music and make decisions accordingly.

[ampexfanatic]

Wow the negative side sounds scary... very scary.