trouble with spaced pair overheads

[audioslave]

I have been trying to get this method down for a while now. I've always been a big recorderman and XY guy but the AB spaced method seems to be very popular for drum overheads.

How do you get the angles just right?

Where to point?

Space between both mics... where does the 3-1 rule apply?



Been always getting phasy results with this application. So... please as my first post, can I get a quick tutorial on this setup please.

thanks!

John

[Riad]

Originally Posted by audioslave

I have been trying to get this method down for a while now. I've always been a big recorderman and XY guy but the AB spaced method seems to be very popular for drum overheads.

How do you get the angles just right?

Where to point?

Space between both mics... where does the 3-1 rule apply?



Been always getting phasy results with this application. So... please as my first post, can I get a quick tutorial on this setup please.

thanks!

John

I've been going ORTF recently with great results, I make sure the snare sits right in the center of the image.

[joaquin]

Originally Posted by Riad

I've been going ORTF recently with great results, I make sure the snare sits right in the center of the image.

...and if the snare isn't centered!? I usually go for the kick

[warhead]

I prefer the ROTFLMFAO technique but that's just me.

(sorry that was just BAD)

I always monitor in MONO with isolation headphones on when positioning mics like this. You probably knew that, but I had to say something after that bad play on jargon above...

But seriously, if you haven't tried monitoring in MONO while setting this stuff up give it a shot. Helps in any stereo mic'ing situation to minimize bad phase relationships (or completely exploit them to desired effect). You may end up with small compromises between what sounds right to your ears in stereo and what you lose when summed to MONO...but...yeah.

Party on, and tell me why I had to be a Powerslave and not an Audioslave!

War

[audioslave]

so really,


There's no set rule to where you point the mics? Sometimes I see that they're pointing outward, then inward, then straight down.

set one up, listen in mono and select position of second mic that has less phase issue.


Right?


Thanks folks!

John

[Riad]

Originally Posted by audioslave

so really,


There's no set rule to where you point the mics? Sometimes I see that they're pointing outward, then inward, then straight down.

set one up, listen in mono and select position of second mic that has less phase issue.


Right?


Thanks folks!

John

I've tried outward, inward, straight down, behind the drum kit, the only thing I haven't tried is suspending the drum kit in the air and putting mics under the kit.

If you know a drummer that's willing to come to your place (you can probably get one to come over for a case of Pabst Blue Ribbon) you can test all setups and see which one works for you best.


Rob

[cdog]

This is my method, it works for me in my room:

Imagine a line going straight up 2-3' from the drummer's head.

That is your vertical center.

The horizontal center is a line going from the ride cymbal or right most cymbal through the hi hat or left most cymbal.

The horizontal line will likely NOT be parallel to the face of the kick drum.

Spread the mics out so that they are 1-3' apart, depending on the size of the kit.

Start with the mics aimed straight down.

Then angle them 10-20 degrees away from each other side to side.

And tilt them 20-30 degrees up towards the cymbals.

This will give you a cymbal dominant sound with the ride and hi-hat in nice balance, and minimal phase issues with close mic'd toms, kick, and snare.

[the1Hub]

its so important to get the snare and the kick in the center of your stereo image with any type of micing technique. here is a real easy way to do it. when placing the mics imagin a straight line that travels straight throught the center of the front head of the kick drum and the center of the snare. that line is your center line (assuming you want your kick and snare in the middle in reality neither is actualy in the middle. the snare is a little right and the kick is a little left. but we can talk about that later.) now travel down the line to the point that is exactly halfway between the kick and snare. from there imagin a line that intersects through the first line perpendicularly. now we have x and a y axis. the orginal line we will call x, and the new line y. line y is where what we will use as a guide of where to place mics. now if you travel out on the line y in oppisite dirrections and equal lengths you can place the mics anywhere and the snare and kick will allways be in the center of the image. now of course there are phasing issue that will dictate where the best points along the y axis are to place mics but you never have to worry about where the kick and snare are. they will always be in the middle. remerber to that the mics can be moved up or down but they need to be at the same hieght for this to work.

now i just place mics tell i like the way they sound but when i started out that saved me a bunch of headache time dealing with phase issues.

[7rojo7]

AB = cymbal mics, like the cdog explanation, there's a vry good explaination on John Sayers site about drum micing and finding the center with diagrams. google SAE John Sayers.
The snare is usually off to one side of the kik (lefty or righty) in a 2 wing tom set the 2nd tom is the one you want in the middle, with an xy setup you wouldn't position the mics as the drummer is faced but on a 30° or so angle to line up the kik, snare and second tom so that becomes your center axis. On 1 tom sets the ride cymbal is usually where the second tom is (in the center). With an xy overheads I use the headphones in stereo to position the drum panning carefully with the overheads. I monitor in mono 90% of the time when I'm tracking.
AB is useful in front of the kit if you have a good room and a good drummer, Over the kit it's useful to get the cymbals isolated, this works for bashers (keep em down) or wimpy drummers (turn em up), but I wouldn't look for any "stereo image" or that's how the drum set sounds (better sound good!) AB works good for Pop where you want to isolate and control the sounds or any kind of speed, death, thrash etc... for the latter you might find your self using ABCD...
I use 3 M260s in an OCT over the kit for a natural sound or the sam mics on seperate stands pointing at the cymbals from the inside towards the outside of the kit to isolate the cymbals from the drums as much as possible.
good drummers and well tuned kits win out over any recording technique.

[audioslave]

I appreciate the help!

I really wanted to try this and do it right this time.


Thanks




John

[chetatkinsdiet]

Not to be vague, but it depends on a zillion things. How do the drums sound in your room? How hard is the drummer playing? Does he kill the cymbals? Does he really hit the drums hard? Once you get them thrown up for the first time, how's the overall mix? Need more snare....point the one on that side more to the snare. Too much snare, point it away a bit.
It's been said before, but it's not rocket science....but you have to just get in there and play around with it.
later,
m

[Bob Ross]

I really like the1Hub's suggestion for finding the intersection of the cental X & Y axis (axes?), gonna have to try that some time.

What I've found though is that it's far more critical to get the snare drum centered; probably because I'm getting most of the kick sound from its close mic, I've never encountered a situation where the imaging from the overheads created a phantom kick image that conflicted with where I had panned the kick mic.

But snare is much easier to hear when those images are clashing. So when I'm using spaced overheads I always bring a measuring "tool" (sometimes it actually is a tape measure, but more often it's a 1-meter patchcord) and I simply make sure that the two overheads are equidistant from the center of the snare head.

And then they usually get pointed straight down, or just slightly outwards (back towards their respective stands).

Having said that, I use a whole lot more X/Y or ORTF than spaced mics for overheads these days. And when those coincident mics yield a phantom snare image that's slightly off center (which is very often), *that's* where I'll pan the snare mic. Screw this Snare Must Be Centered paradigm!