High end power cables DID make a difference, so now what?

[Rasmus Faber]

Ok, so I got the opportunity to try out a couple of high grade power cables from the japanese company Oyaide.

My studio is in a fairly new building (in Sweden, with Shuko outlets and 220V), and I dont have any problems with steady hum or anything like that, and I'm not one to believe in hypes, so I was sceptic when I plugged them in. Took 3 of them and plugged into my Genelec 7050 sub and 8040 speakers, and didnt expect to hear any change.

I was very very surprised to hear the sound change for the better! The change was not big as in that it fixed something that before was very wrong, but considering its just power, I would say the change was quite dramatic! It reminded me of when I took a step up changing to better D/A converters. Things got clearer and tighter somehow. To use a metaphor, it felt like wiping small dust particles of a sunlit table with a wet cloth, if that makes any sense.. I changed the cables back and forth a few times just to be sure.

I've never really given power much consideration. Is it grounded? Cool, then lets go. Thats about as far as I've gone.
But this really got me thinking!

Now I would really like to ask people with similar experiences and more knowledge: What exactly happened here?
I mean, these are individual cables, not any form of distribution central.
And say I would like to get better power for all my studio gear, what would be a good solution? (Dont think I can afford to change all cables to the Oyaide ones, not at the moment anyway)

I searched around on this forum and it seems that many people believe that if you dont have a problem with hum or noise when your washing machine is running or something, you dont really have a problem, and the rest is all hype. But I can really say this isnt the case in my studio, and I would really like to dig a bit deeper into this subject!

Thanks

Rasmus

[domokunrox]

Are you talking about IEC cables?

You're absolutely nuts if you think there is any difference between Cable A or Cable B

[Rasmus Faber]

Originally Posted by domokunrox

Are you talking about IEC cables?

You're absolutely nuts if you think there is any difference between Cable A or Cable B

Dear Domokunrox, yes these are IEC cables, and after a long post where I tell you I'm usually not one to believe in hypes, that I changed the cables back and forth to be sure, etc, can someone say something a bit more intelligent please.

[jeremy.c.]

Originally Posted by Rasmus Faber

can someone say something a bit more intelligent please.

You're suffering from confirmation bias.
I, sadly, will not be able to trust your ears on this one. Double blind tests don't show anything better than guessing. It's a very easy trap to fall into, but unless someone can demonstrate to us how an IEC cable can physically alter the performance of your power amp and the sound and movement of your speakers, those claims exist in the realm of pseudo-science.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Rasmus Faber

I got the opportunity to try out a couple of high grade power cables from the japanese company Oyaide ... I was sceptic when I plugged them in.

Did you buy them or borrow them? If you bought them, you're already biased and less skeptical than you think.

Originally Posted by olivia_nb

those claims exist in the realm of pseudo-science.

Either that, or comb filtering.

--Ethan

[Rasmus Faber]

Right, so since both of you chose to disregard my judgment without hesitation, I will, however not make the same judgment on you.
Since we have now entered into the realm of psychology, would you not say that its not then equally likely that my claim does not sound good to you because it does not comply with your world view, or desired reality?

Anyway, if I sit and listen to my left and right speaker not moving air in the exact same way because one of them has a different cable, and that is indeed pseudo-science, then perhaps I should just resign from my job as a decently succesful producer, mixer, engineer, etc, that I've worked with for the last 10 years, as my ears are apparently good for nothing. Or maybe thats taking it too far, but it seems then all my gear upgrades for the last 10 years has been in vain, as my brain is too receptive to pseudo-science and my ears cant judge on subtle differences...

Alternatively, instead of just sticking to your pre-concieved ideas, how about believing me for a second, and continue the conversation based on that, and perhaps we can actually discover something that would be of gain for all of us.

[Rasmus Faber]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Did you buy them or borrow them? If you bought them, you're already biased and less skeptical than you think.
Either that, or comb filtering
--Ethan

I borrowed them. I tested the phenomena as thoroughly as I possibly could, sitting and listening to speaker 1 with the new cable, 2 with the old one, swapping, noticing the same change in both. Sitting at the exact same place. My room is treated, my speakers are calibrated and placed by a pro (well, I didnt move listening position anyway, but just so you know)

[Barish]

You can NEVER sit with your ears in exactly the same place.

And if you have ever got involved in building studios -which I have-, you'd know that even running the same signal one after another in a room without changing anything would not yield exactly the same plot. There's always a minor difference in between. Not to mention the differences in the response you get by moving the mic half a centimetre from the last test point. It is that precise phenomenon. And the odds of your ears landing in exactly the same coordinates in the space every time you lean forward and back while changing cables are... well... in the region of randomness... 1 in a few billion or something.

Some years ago, a very prominent and respected producer/engineer who has his own forum in one of these online forums had come up with a thread about the super-dooper IEC cables that a friend of his had manufactured and had him use in his studio. He was saying that hearing was believing. The difference on his 192I/O was like moving up from a prosumer converter to a 192I/O and all sorts of fairy dust stuff.

To that, all we said was "if it can be heard, then it can be printed. Print the difference, and post it."

We've never received any audio evidence.

Then we said, "okay, here's our credit card number, and our Fedex account number. Swipe it, and send one over for evaluation."

We've never received any samples whatsoever.

And the thread died a quiet death into oblivion, and we've never heard from our man any comments on that issue ever again. Perhaps it was too hot a topic to touch for a man of his calibre.

Obviously we are not expecting you to be so sensitive about your career now, but just to let you know that you're not the first one to come up with this pseudo-revelation.

But, the same questions apply to you too. In exactly the same order. If it can be heard, then it can be recorded. Print it, post it.

Ethan's comb filter theory is pretty good starter in knowing more about what's happening to you.

B.

[Butcha]

Thanks for sharing your experiences, Rasmus. You took the time to try them out and found that you were able to hear a difference. Those casting aspersions on your conclusions should take the time to do the same thing. I don't have an opinion either way (as I haven't heard any "high-end IEC cables) but if I do get a chance to I will be sure to take it.

[mikedaul]

Make a couple of recordings with a battery-powered device and post them. If the effects of the power cable are audible then they should be able to be recorded as such.

[jproc]

this type of stupid claim has been de-bunked more times than I can count....

Your Genelec monitors have pretty nice circuitry for voltage regulation,etc built into their amplifiers... any minute difference in the power quality coming through your piece of wire would be negated in the internal power supply circuitry anyway...

[jeremy.c.]

Originally Posted by Rasmus Faber

Right, so since both of you chose to disregard my judgment without hesitation, I will, however not make the same judgment on you.
Since we have now entered into the realm of psychology, would you not say that its not then equally likely that my claim does not sound good to you because it does not comply with your world view, or desired reality?

Anyway, if I sit and listen to my left and right speaker not moving air in the exact same way because one of them has a different cable, and that is indeed pseudo-science, then perhaps I should just resign from my job as a decently succesful producer, mixer, engineer, etc, that I've worked with for the last 10 years, as my ears are apparently good for nothing. Or maybe thats taking it too far, but it seems then all my gear upgrades for the last 10 years has been in vain, as my brain is too receptive to pseudo-science and my ears cant judge on subtle differences...

It's not bashing you to suggest you have fallen victim to confirmation bias, it happens to all of us very easily.
If you are that easily offended by the suggestion that you're not hearing what you think you're hearing and you're only looking for people that support your claim, that is clearly confirmation bias.

Alternatively, instead of just sticking to your pre-concieved ideas, how about believing me for a second, and continue the conversation based on that, and perhaps we can actually discover something that would be of gain for all of us.

I have no reason to believe otherwise, the proof of extraordinary claims rests on you, not us.
Keeping an open mind is fine, I asked for an explanation, I am open to that, until you show me otherwise I will rely on my own personal anecdotes.

[Rasmus Faber]

Ok, so where do you guys draw the line? Which equipment really sound good?
Which are only based on hypes?

I'd be happy to record it, not sure exactly what equipment to use though. I'm sure some of you might be able to hear it, though perhaps not all of you.

Out of interest though. If all of this is, as you say, in the realm of pseudo-science, then from where do you get your absolutely un-movable ideas that I have not heard what I thought I heard? Would they not be in the same realm of pseudo-science, and who could be the true judge of that?

Also, are the laws of physics such that no new improvements could ever be invented? I'm not asking to be a smart-ass, I'm just not so trained in physics that I have any knowledge if there are any limitations in power supplies' impact on the thing they're spupplying, that it could never be improved with new inventions.

Ok, I dont really know why I keep arguing here, I honestly didnt expect to be met with such scepticism, but anyway, to my ears (or brain or whatever), the difference was not at all in the frequenzy response, such as the comb filtering suggested, but rather I felt the absence of an extremely small amount of grain in the sound, when using the new cables. When I put the old cables back, I could almost hear that grain again, but its also quite easy to "forget", however, listening to left and right respectively, and then swapping, was when I could truly hear it.
If someone in here could actually lower themselves to believe I'm not all full of shit, maybe that description makes more sense? If not, then over and out people.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Rasmus Faber

would you not say that its not then equally likely that my claim does not sound good to you because it does not comply with your world view, or desired reality?

I'm not bashing you either, but it makes no sense that a functioning replacement power cord would create even the tiniest difference in the audio passing through your gear. Now, it could be they added a 10 Ohm resistor in series, making the power worse but different. I've seen that done with speaker cables and "purifiers" sold to audiophooles. But that's in the signal path where it's more practical for a passive component to make a real difference.

The only way to settle this for sure is for someone else to test you blind. If you're ever in my neighborhood, let me know and we'll give it a go.

--Ethan

[grindx]

You didn't mention the length, but they could be a heavier gauge copper, are likely shielded, and may be built with a higher quality connector (better contacts).


How much do they charge for them? Building them yourself is surprisingly inexpensive.

[Rasmus Faber]

Originally Posted by jproc

Your Genelec monitors have pretty nice circuitry for voltage regulation

Ok, there is absolutely no way whatsoever to try to argue I'm not the victim of confirmation bias, unless I can record it and prove it to you.

But doesnt the above quote at least say that there is room for some improvements?

If there's something as a "pretty nice circuitry" wouldnt there also be something like a "damn fine" one?

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Rasmus Faber

Ok, so where do you guys draw the line? Which equipment really sound good? Which are only based on hypes?

Test gear is quite good for separating fact from faulty perception.

from where do you get your absolutely un-movable ideas that I have not heard what I thought I heard?

From a deep understanding of electrical circuits and how they work.

are the laws of physics such that no new improvements could ever be invented?

In power cord technology? Not likely. All a power wire has to do is pass AC voltage from one end to the other losing as little voltage to resistance as possible. This is drop-dead trivial for 12 cents worth of copper. And it doesn't have to be oxygen free copper either!

I felt the absence of an extremely small amount of grain in the sound, when using the new cables.

This is trivial to confirm with test gear.

When I put the old cables back, I could almost hear that grain again, but its also quite easy to "forget"

Right, "forget" is exactly the right word. Our hearing is very short term. I'm certain you really think you heard a change! And nobody is attacking your hearing or experience as a recording pro. It happens to everyone. All the time. The key is understanding how short term our hearing really is.

unless I can record it and prove it to you.

Actually, that's a great idea. Why don't you do that? Then you can have someone else blind test you on the recorded files. And then some of the more science-minded people here can analyze the files and see if there really is a difference.

--Ethan

[John Eppstein]

OK, I just posted this in another thread yesterday, but I'll repeat myself here.

There actually IS a scenario where this MIGHT make an audible difference - but it isn't because of any of the fancy blather that the premium cable companies want you to believe.

Many standard quality IEC cables are made of relatively thin wire. It is conceivable that the cables you were using did not have sufficient conductor size for the amount of current you were pulling through them, especially on bass notes and musical peaks, and were in fact "starving" the amplifiers in your Genelecs. Changing to a heavy gauge cable would alleviate this.

Go to your local hardware store and pick up some nice heavy 12 gauge 3 conductor cable of normal quality and some ends and construct some cables wityh that. I bet you will hear no difference between those cables and your fancy "premium" cables, and you will hear the same difference that you hear compared to your old, chintzy cables.

T'ain't no magic - it's just a bigger pipe!

[Bob Olhsson]

A power cable can attenuate radio frequency interference in the power supply and indeed clean up the sound.

My next step would be to really tighten up all of your AC power connections. This will reduce or eliminate what the power cord is doing for the sound but it will give you the same effect as putting an expensive power cord on every single piece of gear you have.

[Rasmus Faber]

Ok, when I find the time I will organize a blind test, and include myself, I'll find someone else to monitor it. That would be the only way to know for sure I guess. I would have to find some more people with very sensitive ears (which, despite my ironic replies, I actually believe I posess). If anyone interested in this matter is in Stockholm, Sweden, feel free to chime in. I could also lend someone in town the cables to see for themselves.
Although I would want to make absolutely sure they are not biased by the pseudo-scientifical belief that there can be absolutely no difference whatsoever

[Rasmus Faber]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

OK, I just posted this in another thread yesterday, but I'll repeat myself here.

There actually IS a scenario where this MIGHT make an audible difference - but it isn't because of any of the fancy blather that the premium cable companies want you to believe.

Many standard quality IEC cables are made of relatively thin wire. It is conceivable that the cables you were using did not have sufficient conductor size for the amount of current you were pulling through them, especially on bass notes and musical peaks, and were in fact "starving" the amplifiers in your Genelecs. Changing to a heavy gauge cable would alleviate this.

Go to your local hardware store and pick up some nice heavy 12 gauge 3 conductor cable of normal quality and some ends and construct some cables wityh that. I bet you will hear no difference between those cables and your fancy "premium" cables, and you will hear the same difference that you hear compared to your old, chintzy cables.

T'ain't no magic - it's just a bigger pipe!

Thanks John! Well, I have absolutely no preconcieved ideas as to what exactly caused the change of sound, and I dont care the slightest if its a thicker wire or a hefty price tag, I'm not one for fancy stuff, and I'm borrowing these cables anyway, havent paid a dime, and wasnt planning to, as I wrote in my first post.

This is exactly the reason I was writing my post in the first place, if I could have the same result with cheap stuff = great!
And this scenario also suggests (I think?) that it would affect speakers only, but not preamps, audio interface, etc.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Test gear is quite good for separating fact from faulty perception.

This is trivial to confirm with test gear.

--Ethan

Actually, Ethan, it might not be quite a trivial as one would think.

Most test gear is designed to perform tests under steady state conditions. Actual audio signals are not steady state and can cause an amplifier to make instantaneous draws on a power line that are much greater than the average draw. This is particularly true of amps that lack large, heavy banks of filter caps in the power supply - which is often the case in amps built into powered speakers. This is NOT easy to test for - Lab Gruppen published a white paper explaining why conventional test procedures are not adequate for their amp designs that deals with this problem from another angle, and I've seen various other discussions of it here and there. Back in the days when all power amps were Class AB and had large amounts of reserve in their power supply caps this generally was not a problem. Now it can be with these "modern" designs that draw more directly off the power line. These types of amps need a MUCH heavier line cord for optimum performance - ideally a cord of the same or better gauge as the actual building wiring.

It DOES NOT need to be a fancy-schmancy "premium" cable - it just has to be FAT!

And it certainly does not need expensive "Hospital Grade" connectors unless you're operating in an explosive environment, in which case you have bigger problems to worry about.......

[Rasmus Faber]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

A power cable can attenuate radio frequency interference in the power supply and indeed clean up the sound.

My next step would be to really tighten up all of your AC power connections. This will reduce or eliminate what the power cord is doing for the sound but it will give you the same effect as putting an expensive power cord on every single piece of gear you have.

Thank you Bob! Good to know! I dont know a thing about thiss, so this kind of info really helps!

My initial idea with this post was to sort of figure out if this phenomena was a perfectly known thing, and could be helped with a power distributor, RFI filter etc. These are things I had no knowledge about before, and still not at lot I admit. I saw a lot of posts about Furman etc products and thought that might have some to do with it..

[MonoBrow]

Originally Posted by John Eppstein

Actually, Ethan, it might not be quite a trivial as one would think. Most test gear is designed to perform tests under steady state conditions. Actual audio signals are not steady state and can cause an amplifier to make instantaneous draws on a power line that are much greater than the average draw. This is particularly true of amps that lack large, heavy banks of filter caps in the power supply - which is often the case in amps built into powered speakers. This is NOT easy to test for - Lab Gruppen published a white paper explaining why conventional test procedures are not adequate for their amp designs that deals with this problem from another angle, and I've seen various other discussions of it here and there. Back in the days when all power amps were Class AB and had large amounts of reserve in their power supply caps this generally was not a problem. Now it can be with these "modern" designs that draw more directly off the power line. These types of amps need a MUCH heavier line cord for optimum performance - ideally a cord of the same or better gauge as the actual building wiring.

It DOES NOT need to be a fancy-schmancy "premium" cable - it just has to be FAT!

I agree 100%.If the cable is too thin there will be a noticable difference especially under heavy load.

[MichaelAngelo]

Originally Posted by Rasmus Faber

Ok, so I got the opportunity to try out a couple of high grade power cables from the japanese company Oyaide.

My studio is in a fairly new building (in Sweden, with Shuko outlets and 220V), and I dont have any problems with steady hum or anything like that, and I'm not one to believe in hypes, so I was sceptic when I plugged them in. Took 3 of them and plugged into my Genelec 7050 sub and 8040 speakers, and didnt expect to hear any change.

I was very very surprised to hear the sound change for the better! The change was not big as in that it fixed something that before was very wrong, but considering its just power, I would say the change was quite dramatic! It reminded me of when I took a step up changing to better D/A converters. Things got clearer and tighter somehow. To use a metaphor, it felt like wiping small dust particles of a sunlit table with a wet cloth, if that makes any sense.. I changed the cables back and forth a few times just to be sure.

I've never really given power much consideration. Is it grounded? Cool, then lets go. Thats about as far as I've gone.
But this really got me thinking!

Now I would really like to ask people with similar experiences and more knowledge: What exactly happened here?
I mean, these are individual cables, not any form of distribution central.
And say I would like to get better power for all my studio gear, what would be a good solution? (Dont think I can afford to change all cables to the Oyaide ones, not at the moment anyway)

I searched around on this forum and it seems that many people believe that if you dont have a problem with hum or noise when your washing machine is running or something, you dont really have a problem, and the rest is all hype. But I can really say this isnt the case in my studio, and I would really like to dig a bit deeper into this subject!

Thanks

Rasmus

I have much experience on this matter. In my studio complex The Music Palace I ran 40 seperate circuits ( using 10 gauge wire ) into my control room. Hence all my really important gear does not share the neutreal back to the main AC panel. This of course made a nice improvement in the overall fidelity and resolution of my total system.. As a matter of fact I also ran 40 seperate ground wires from each hosipital grade outlet...!!! Which goes to my star bar (25 pound heavy solid copper buss bar that came out of a factory Ac panel) to my 80 10ft ground rods that go 100 feet into the earth in 8 different locations around my building... My ground impedence is below 1 ohm!

Results.... very very quiet noise floor and nice sounding audio and forget about how good mics sound off my studio floor...

Most pro audio people don't respect hi fi people, I am from both towns and can clearly see the confusion....

Power cords, outlets, humidity, magnetic radiation, (big transformers, ie gear.. too close to a console ,.. etc etc all makes a big difference, and you can hear it especially if your studio is not in your house and you can't hear the traffic outside...

Cheers MicAngelo

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Butcha

Thanks for sharing your experiences, Rasmus. You took the time to try them out and found that you were able to hear a difference. Those casting aspersions on your conclusions should take the time to do the same thing. I don't have an opinion either way (as I haven't heard any "high-end IEC cables) but if I do get a chance to I will be sure to take it.

I have a very strong opinion on it since I'm a signatory and casual member of a consortium taking legal action against three such distributors. The consortium has been pooled as witnesses for a {hopeful} government sponsored injunction against making spurious claims in safety equipment - IEC leads come under this. The consortium has already gained expert testimony from many areas... so far no experts have taken the opposing side.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Rasmus Faber

Thanks John! Well, I have absolutely no preconcieved ideas as to what exactly caused the change of sound, and I dont care the slightest if its a thicker wire or a hefty price tag, I'm not one for fancy stuff, and I'm borrowing these cables anyway, havent paid a dime, and wasnt planning to, as I wrote in my first post.

This is exactly the reason I was writing my post in the first place, if I could have the same result with cheap stuff = great!
And this scenario also suggests (I think?) that it would affect speakers only, but not preamps, audio interface, etc.

Powered speakers, power amps, and things with big motors like pro tape decks can have their performance reduced by inadequate wiring. Low draw stuff shouldn't see any difference.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Rasmus Faber

Thank you Bob! Good to know! I dont know a thing about thiss, so this kind of info really helps!

My initial idea with this post was to sort of figure out if this phenomena was a perfectly known thing, and could be helped with a power distributor, RFI filter etc. These are things I had no knowledge about before, and still not at lot I admit. I saw a lot of posts about Furman etc products and thought that might have some to do with it..

I think Bob was kind of speaking against your point !!

[Barish]

Rasmus,

We are not saying that you are full of shit. We are not saying that you are not hearing any difference either. All we are saying is that what you think is making the difference you are hearing is not what is causing the difference you are hearing.

John,

The standard for IEC C13-C14 cords that we see shipped along with the audio products is that they are capable of handling power up to 10 Amps at 250V. That makes 2500VA, which is something like 1750W.

So unless our buddy is running a small-scale Status Quo live rig in his recording studio on every single IEC cord, the chances of his standard IEC cables affecting the performance of his audio equipment due to weak conductivity is nil.

The full rundown on IEC cord standards and ratings is available here: IEC connector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cheers.

B.

[Rasmus Faber]

Well, Barish, my initial question was just that: What is making the difference that I'm hearing. Now, the way I tested this, switching listening position by a few millimetres is simply not whats making the change. And I felt the immediate claims of being biased just came a bit too quickly, which made me a bit upset, since there is now apparently technically skilled people on "both sides" arguing.
And as for saying I'm full of shit, just look at second post, which is kind of what set me off, the rest of the posts were more polite, but got dragged down by that first one, which sparked my argumentative side sorry bout that

I have a few skills, very sensitive ears is one of them, electrical engineering definitely is not. So seeing that we might have a few different competent people on each side here, all I do is stand by my claim that I heard a difference. Just sitting back and reading hopefully will give me some more knowledge.