High end power cables DID make a difference, so now what?

[Froombosch]

Oooh, now we get the A/B debate??

We tried with two preamps. The performances are different. That is totally right.
The position of the guitar was almost the same everytime. No other connector then the 230V ones was even losen/fitted. All cables microphone exactly the same. Even the time that the preamp was on was almost the same for both trails.

Is the difference not big ?? We were shocked.

Try it with your own CD-player. Then the only thing that is different is the powercable turned in phase.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by TurboJets

1. That's what he's stating, is that to his ears a "difference...actually exists"

No, a difference actually exists when it actually exists, not merely when someone perceives it exists. Does a magician really create new rabbits out of thin air just because someone saw him do it?

Picking the 'good' cable when you know which one is which is like picking last week's winning lottery numbers. Anybody can do it.

2. I wasn't implying he should "be afraid", just that he shouldn't waste his time jumping through hoops for You when he has better things to do and has had his experience. This is where it gets to be like high school: "afraid to post an A/B test, eh?"..."afraid to prove your point, eh?"..." blah blah bloody blah. It's so ridiculous.

No. Rasmus said he was going to try a blind test for himself to expand his own understanding. Not to please us.

You on the other hand, are encouraging him to cling his subjective impression and take it for Reality.

We make our living with our ears. It is hardly a "waste of time" to develop an understanding of how our minds might influence our perception.

The guy makes a post outlining his experience, asks if someone has reference for him to understand it more scientifically and a bunch of guys want to piss on him and challenge him. It's childish.

The reference for him to understand it more scientifically was given: the reference to Expectation Bias. What is childish is to get one's back up at this suggestion and take it as 'challenging'.

It's not.

It's the answer to his question. The scientific answer. Rather than 'pissing' on him, I commended him for his willingness to try a blind test.


To his credit, Rasmus is open to exploring this avenue. To your detriment, not only do you cling to your subjectivity, you are trying to encourage others to be as close-minded as you.

[hazelmossobrien]

Originally Posted by Rasmus Faber

I borrowed them. I tested the phenomena as thoroughly as I possibly could, sitting and listening to speaker 1 with the new cable, 2 with the old one, swapping, noticing the same change in both. Sitting at the exact same place. My room is treated, my speakers are calibrated and placed by a pro (well, I didnt move listening position anyway, but just so you know)

WHY NOT DO A RANDOM LISTENING TEST WITH A FRIEND TO HELP?

this way you can listen to both cables totally blind 100 times, and pick which one is the japanese cable 100 times correctly, right?

[Piedpiper]

It is amazing to me how many otherwise intelligent people insist that the buck of knowledge unequivocally stops with them. It's downright unscientific. Well intentioned perhaps, but ultimately illogical, like any other assumptions. I'm with the op's assessment of the knee jerk naysayers as pseudoscientists. True scientists know better than to be arrogant.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Froombosch

e same for both trails.

Is the difference not big ?? We were shocked.
.

well - apart from liking the sound of the instrument and very definitely preferring various pre-amps.... there is not really anything between the "power flipping" ones to speak of... nothing that isnt directly attributable to instrument moving, playing it differently etc. These may even be the very things you "heard" in your test.....

Now - let me qualify this by saying I'm sat in front of about £30k worth of monitoring - 803s, etc etc in a fine room. I've played the things to two of my colleagues - one of them an award winning recording engineer of orchestra - and they think the same as me. Maybe we're all deaf.

Doing the same thing to a CD player will do nothing - rectification for one thing. The other thing AC cycles. So at any given time you may be on one wavefront or another....

Anyway - I like the Duendo thing.... very clean.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Piedpiper

It is amazing to me how many otherwise intelligent people insist that the buck of knowledge unequivocally stops with them. It's downright unscientific. Well intentioned perhaps, but ultimately illogical, like any other assumptions. I'm with the op's assessment of the knee jerk naysayers as pseudoscientists. True scientists know better than to be arrogant.

It's amazing to me how people can still be pulled into things debunked 30 years ago...... and I'm afraid the general consensus is against silly price power cable

fully qualified and published ex research mathematician {applied} here......saw the error of my ways 20 years ago and entered moozik.....

anyway - i'm off to bed. It's 3:30 in the morning and it's been a long session.... more tomorrow !! Deadlines eh?

R

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by Rasmus Faber

... I saw a lot of posts about Furman etc products and thought that might have some to do with it..

Of course lots of folks are selling stuff.

One of the most common problems I've run into are AC connections in buildings annd homes that were screwed down 60 years ago and never touched again.

[narcoman]

THAT's a very real issue...

[Sounds Great]

Have someone else switching the cables behind your back and differences you heard will disappear.

[aiff]

Originally Posted by Strange Leaf

Power cables of the finest whatever in the world won't change anything, because if you kick a hole in your wall and take a look at the power cables there, they are not the same fine quality. Rule of the weakest link apply, and changing a few meters of cables won't change shit. Sorry.

I respectfully disagree.

Power cables do make a difference to the sound.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by domokunrox

Are you talking about IEC cables?

You're absolutely nuts if you think there is any difference between Cable A or Cable B

I understand the exasperation that can overtake one in a forum like this...

But I would offer that whether or not there is an actual audible difference produced in the sound coming out the speakers by substituting cable B for cable A for one or more pieces of gear, that the OP is simply being human in thinking he hears such a difference. Not nuts. Just human.




We are all subject, to varying degrees, to different forms of testing bias. It is precisely why scientists who study human perception determined in the late 19th and early 20th centuries that for perceptual testing to be reliable, in most cases it had to conform to true double blind rigor -- because not only do test subjects respond to their own preconceived notions in various ways, they subconsciously derive cues from test givers. Making sure that test givers and takers are blind to the actual nature of the test material was shown to be crucial to reliable results and uncontaminated perceptions.

[mitchiemasha]

Why We Believe

I've spent hours looking for that link and 5 mins pop in there it is.

thank you.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by Piedpiper

It is amazing to me how many otherwise intelligent people insist that the buck of knowledge unequivocally stops with them. It's downright unscientific. Well intentioned perhaps, but ultimately illogical, like any other assumptions. I'm with the op's assessment of the knee jerk naysayers as pseudoscientists. True scientists know better than to be arrogant.

A true scientist puts things to the test. Experiment is the essence of science.

What's arrogant is insisting that no experiment is necessary, because 'I heard it' (while peeking at the labels).

What's pseudoscience is the knee-jerk rejection of a logical explanation (Expectation Bias) out of hand, while at the same time refusing to even test that explanation. What could be easier than enlisting a friend to switch the cables for you?

I am NOT saying the buck of knowledge stops here. On the contrary, I would love to see more perceptual testing going on, both casual and rigorous. But how are we going to learn anything if our 'science' consists entirely of anecdotes we are not allowed to test? "I heard it."

I am more than willing to listen carefully to the power-cable claims of anyone who can identify a difference between them blindfolded. Never mind say which one is better. I don't care if they have an electrical theory to back it up or not, if they really could hear something every time, blindfolded, then as far as I am concerned, it would be time for a new theory.

I have no beef with those who prefer an expensive power cable, or whatever, but let's be clear: it is those who argue against blind testing who are the pseudoscientists!

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by joeq

A true scientist puts things to the test. Experiment is the essence of science.

What's arrogant is insisting that no experiment is necessary, because 'I heard it' (while peeking at the labels).

What's pseudoscience is the knee-jerk rejection of a logical explanation (Expectation Bias) out of hand, while at the same time refusing to even test that explanation. What could be easier than enlisting a friend to switch the cables for you?

I am NOT saying the buck of knowledge stops here. On the contrary, I would love to see more perceptual testing going on, both casual and rigorous. But how are we going to learn anything if our 'science' consists entirely of anecdotes we are not allowed to test? "I heard it."

I am more than willing to listen carefully to the power-cable claims of anyone who can identify a difference between them blindfolded. Never mind say which one is better. I don't care if they have an electrical theory to back it up or not, if they really could hear something every time, blindfolded, then as far as I am concerned, it would be time for a new theory.

I have no beef with those who prefer an expensive power cable, or whatever, but it's clear that it is those who argue against blind testing who are the pseudoscientists!

Well said. You're not describing me here, for what it's worth. But even ABX tests are not beyond reproach. As an aside, to paraphrase something the OP said earlier, do you demand ABX tests for every sonically based decision you make? Or are there not many things you hear that are obvious enough that you don't question your judgement? I always get the distinct impression that those that argue from the armchair of theory have never, and would never, give it a listen. Interesting isn't it.

Incidentally, as I've pointed out in other similar threads, IME, it's not every cable, whether power cord, interconnect, mic cable, speaker cable, etc, that will make an easily discernible difference. And, of course, price is not the arbiter of quality, although esoteric R&D is time consuming, and time better be money if you want to be able to afford to offer a service/product.

[Mark Gifford]

Would this test work?

1. Take your most accurate mic/pre/converter and set it up at your standard listening position.

2. Play a pre-recorded track of white or pink noise thru your monitors, using Cable "A." Record it.

3. Do the same with Cable "B."

4. Reverse polarity on one of the new tracks, and see if it nulls.

The only thing which would change would be the cables, and your ears/perception would be taken out of the equation.

[TurboJets]

Originally Posted by narcoman

well - apart from liking the sound of the instrument and very definitely preferring various pre-amps.... there is not really anything between the "power flipping" ones to speak of... nothing that isnt directly attributable to instrument moving, playing it differently etc. These may even be the very things you "heard" in your test.....

Now - let me qualify this by saying I'm sat in front of about £30k worth of monitoring - 803s, etc etc in a fine room. I've played the things to two of my colleagues - one of them an award winning recording engineer of orchestra - and they think the same as me. Maybe we're all deaf.

Deaf AND Daft IMO to be honest about it.

I'm serious man, if you guys don't hear a difference in the clips Froombosch posted then I'd like to know what studio you're in so we can stay far away from it because there is a clear and defined difference between the clips where they switched the power phase. And the difference exhibits the same qualities for both pre's. The sonic qualities are quite clearly different.

This is just the same stupid argument all over again anyway. Froombosch, nice post...excellent samples IMO.

Rasmus, great post, too bad it got ruined by people that just can't help themselves from pi$$ing in your Cheerios amigo. I'm out.

[Ronski]

What about surge protectors, do you think its ok to use them on amps, mixers and such? Do they affect sound at all?

[Froombosch]

Originally Posted by narcoman

Doing the same thing to a CD player will do nothing - rectification for one thing. The other thing AC cycles. So at any given time you may be on one wavefront or another....

Have you tried it?

[Rasmus Faber]

Originally Posted by narcoman

Partial tosh - meant in a nice way !!

As long as you're not using some rubbish three strand cable there is absolutely no need to go spending the astronomical costs some distributors want. $2000 for a 2 meter IEC lead..... It's out there. Yes - get well made good quality leads - but don't go nuts and look for "audiophile IEC".... And as for your experience - I call bias and placebo..... Good quality $20 IEC is ALL that is needed.... NOTHING more.

Obsessing over top end power cables IS delusional......

There is a world of difference from repairing a system because a cable is broken and claiming great uber performance because of the ramblings of the liar companies making these things....

All good all good, but PLEASE read my original post. I was not obsessing over anything because it's got anything to do with this or that company, or whatever. It happened to be expensive cables yes (though I didnt pay), but to me thats irrelevant, I specifically asked for reasons of my experiences, and even asked for advice on how to achieve this cheaper.
So please lets leave "obsessing about audiophile, dont believe the price tag"-blablabla. I never brought that up in the first place, and it will take us nowhere.

As far as leads go, I dont use good quality leads that I bought separately, neither ones for 20 or 2000 bucks. I use what came in the box of the equipment, and I'm sure I swapped some cables around too, just grabbing whatever IEC that was lying around.
The reason for that is that I always believed what some people here (still?) believes, that power has absolutely no effect on sound. I was proven wrong by experience (not price tag), and wanted to know whats going on.

[Rasmus Faber]

I really didnt expect this post to take this turn, but I'm happy to read that some people share my experiences, and that some do not. Thats the way we learn isnt it?
Since there are apparently technically skilled people on both sides I'm happy to take a step back and enjoy the show.

I see a problem in dismissing things as confirmation bias so bluntly, as it makes it very difficult to have any progressive discussions. To not even consider for a minute that another person's statement, whatever it may be, is accurate, puts gives the discussion a lack of humility that to me makes it extremely difficult to move forward.

Also, lets stop talking about the price tag shall we. If the result could be acquired by something that costs 5 rather than 5000, noone would be happier than me.

Anyway, if I may try to hijack my thread back, I would like to hear from the people who've had positive experiences from sorting out their power supplies in various ways.
What did you do? And if you even know why things improved, even better!

Turbojets, thanks for the support.

John Eppstein: Do you think making the cable thicker is the only thing?

And I have a question (honest, not argumentative) to the people who are sceptic about the whole power thing (in other words, the confirmation bias people):
How about power distributors, RFI filters, etc. Is that all bullshit to you?
I've seen people using them, Furman, Shunayata, etc etc. Price tag being high or low. Is using these kind of products also due to confirmation bias?

[James Lehmann]

Of the many epic AC Power Cord debates we have had on this Forum the Anyone using aftermarket AC cords thread from 2004 sticks in the memory, for anyone with the time and inclination to check back through 18 pages of background research on this topic.

[Rasmus Faber]

Originally Posted by James Lehmann

Of the many epic AC Power Cord debates we have had on this Forum the Anyone using aftermarket AC cords thread from 2004 sticks in the memory, for anyone with the time and inclination to check back through 18 pages of background research on this topic.

I actually did a search before posting, but think I put in "power supply" and some things that didnt yield many results. Thanks for the tip!

[Barish]

Originally Posted by Piedpiper

It is amazing to me how many otherwise intelligent people insist that the buck of knowledge unequivocally stops with them. It's downright unscientific. Well intentioned perhaps, but ultimately illogical, like any other assumptions. I'm with the op's assessment of the knee jerk naysayers as pseudoscientists. True scientists know better than to be arrogant.

Alright hi-end cable salesman,

Let's go full scientific then. Try me.

As I said, if it can be heard, then it can be recorded.

He who claims it, print it, post it. In the presence of real witnesses. Real names, trackable verifiable professional past in terms of qualification and affiliation.

That puts all the other BS to rest.

And normally I would expect you to put your full professional title as esoteric hi-end cable dealer under your posts before posting in such threads so that people know your affiliation and agenda too.

B.

[somniferous]

You do realize that the power that arrives at any location runs for miles over aluminum alloy cables right (copper is in fact to heavy and costly for long runs)? In fact usually copper wire doesn't touch the power till it leaves the transformer to go into your house, I not convinced that 6 ft is gonna make a huge difference (unless your talking going from a really thin gauge to a heavier gauge as has been stated before)

[aiff]

Originally Posted by Barish

Alright hi-end cable salesman,

Let's go full scientific then. Try me.

Dude. Chill out. Forget scientific pie charts and use your ears. This is audio, not a science project.

Originally Posted by Barish

As I said, if it can be heard, then it can be recorded.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Barish

He who claims it, print it, post it. In the presence of real witnesses. Real names, trackable verifiable professional past in terms of qualification and affiliation.

That puts all the other BS to rest.

Go buy or borrow a decent power cable and give it a go yourself.


No witnesses will be needed as you will be able to witness it for yourself.
If you really don't hear anything, then continue to use the power cables you have & be happy.

Originally Posted by Barish

And normally I would expect you to put your full professional title as esoteric hi-end cable dealer under your posts before posting in such threads so that people know your affiliation and agenda too.
B.

Normally people are open to try things that could improve their sound.

[Revmen]

The left table is taller then the right table is wide. I can see it with my own eyes so don't you dare say that I'm wrong.

[joelpatterson]

I could look at that blindfolded and see the difference!

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by TurboJets

Deaf AND Daft IMO to be honest about it.

I'm serious man, if you guys don't hear a difference in the clips Froombosch posted then I'd like to know what studio you're in so we can stay far away from it because there is a clear and defined difference between the clips where they switched the power phase. And the difference exhibits the same qualities for both pre's. The sonic qualities are quite clearly different.

This is just the same stupid argument all over again anyway. Froombosch, nice post...excellent samples IMO.

Rasmus, great post, too bad it got ruined by people that just can't help themselves from pi$$ing in your Cheerios amigo. I'm out.

What a lame response from a complete charlatan!

Deaf - hey maybe. Successful though eh?.....{there are about 10 or so people on these very forums laughing right now, knowing very well EXACTLY which studio I'm operating from.... }..... hearing harmonics my giddy ass..... Learn a little about instruments and you MIGHT just get there.....you're clearly a LONG way out of your depth....

Rasmus is fine - he's quoting what he feels........

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by aiff

Dude. Chill out. Forget scientific pie charts and use your ears. This is audio, not a science project.

haq ha ha ha !!

There really are some funsters in here.....

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Rasmus Faber

All good all good, but PLEASE read my original post. I was not obsessing over anything because it's got anything to do with this or that company, or whatever. It happened to be expensive cables yes (though I didnt pay), but to me thats irrelevant, I specifically asked for reasons of my experiences, and even asked for advice on how to achieve this cheaper.
So please lets leave "obsessing about audiophile, dont believe the price tag"-blablabla. I never brought that up in the first place, and it will take us nowhere.

As far as leads go, I dont use good quality leads that I bought separately, neither ones for 20 or 2000 bucks. I use what came in the box of the equipment, and I'm sure I swapped some cables around too, just grabbing whatever IEC that was lying around.
The reason for that is that I always believed what some people here (still?) believes, that power has absolutely no effect on sound. I was proven wrong by experience (not price tag), and wanted to know whats going on.

Oh - nothing against your original post. I personally DON'T believe it - but I do believe YOU believe it !! My experience says otherwise.....

.... yes - if you use hoky cables that aren't seated correctly you'll get issue.... you'll have all manner of spikes etc etc.....But you first post mentioned high end cables.... and at the "high end"...man it gets criminal.....