High end power cables DID make a difference, so now what?

[Rasmus Faber]

Originally Posted by TurboJets

BTW, do you still have the cable? And if so, are you still feel the same as before?

Have been pretty busy, producing one album and mixing another, so havent really given it much thought recently. The difference is definitely too subtle to hear unless you compare it. (which, before some people come barking, I am still intending to do seriously when I have time).

My initial thought (21 pages back, remember?) was not so much that it it was a huge thing when using it with my speakers. I mean, its nice to know your speakers sound better than before (if they do in reality or not or whatever blablabla), but I can certainly mix and enjoy music with even worse sounding cables, speakers, IEC leads whatever.

But the company actually claims the cables will make a difference when using it with converters and mic pre's (not my personal claim fellas, keep your fists down), which, if it turns out to be true would be more significant, as that would count for an accumulative effect in larger projects, and then perhaps the difference would not be quite as subtle anymore. Anyway, that has still to be proven, so I'm not gonna say anymore than that, but that was my initial "what if" thought, long before I knew what an infected issue this was.



There has been posts that argues "will better music be made with these cables" or "noone cares about these subtle changes anyway", "jimi hendrix made his record on such an such". Just wanna say that is a whole new argument, and it IS a relevant one, but I dont think it belong in this thread.

I also think it kind of shoots itself in the foot a bit, because if you argue "with what technology can great music be made" then pretty much this whole forum would be irrelevant, because the importance of subtleties certainly doesnt draw its line at power cables. I made great records 7 years ago when my equipment was absolutely shite. Does people think my music sounds better now? Maybe some, most people probably not. Do I myself feel the difference? Most certainly, and therefor it is a natural progress to try and improve on all levels possible (at least for me it is). For me this goes for all aspects of creating. You do what you can basically.

The quest for a better sound is not always the same as the quest for making great music, sometimes they run together sometimes they dont.
Coming from someone who is constantly creating music, from songwriting, through producing and engineering, to the finished product, I can tell you things is not always as easy as "just give me a 4-track casette recorder and I'll make a hit". Different pursuits have different times and places. I see no problem in aiming for BOTH a flawless sound AND making great records. Improving your surroundings and technology could help creativity on the way, or it can become the only focus, and thus killing creativity, its certainly about finding the right balance.

I could write forever about this.. Anyway, I would like to start that discussion in another, more friendly thread.

Also, the point of audiophile companies overpricing their products due to hype is of course very valid. Again I would like to point out that despite the title of this thread, the price tag didnt really have anything to do with anything.
But come on, its not like other companies are not overpricing their products, due to the extremely small and subtle improvements it can give, in say, a mic or mic pre.
People who are on a level where they feel that small change is relevant are prepared to pay a bit of cash for it, just like in every aspect of consumerism I think.

A small and very subtle improvement will not make a better sounding album. Many small changes will perhaps do that. And they could also (maybe) raise your awareness of sound and help you become a better whatever-it-is-you're-doing. Or they might not improve your art the slightest from a factual point, but they might motivate you to go to the studio and work. At least that's how it is for me. Sometimes its that simple.

I know I said I wouldnt come back to this thread, but that was so many pages ago so people probably forgot about it, so here I am again! Dont know what I wanna say really. Just got a bit of time and feel like chiming in!

[Rasmus Faber]

For the sake of argument I should add that I'm not claiming with absolute certainty that any of those subtle changes mentioned above would have anything to do with power cables in particular, I'm talking about subtle changes in general.

[Barish]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Shying away? Not my nature. I don't proudly stick to anything, is soon as I hear something better, the old solution is dumped. Some might call that progress.
Those analyzers don't mean anything unless you use them to find errors. They don't and never will tell you if you will like the sonics. That's an emotional response, that's the nature of music, not test gear. It won't tell you anything about a wire's sonics. That's the perview of the ear. As is music. That may be difficult for an EE to understand, but music is not science, it's pure emotion.

Since you claim to have used reels of Kimber solid core pure silver teflon wire, did you ever bother to listen/audition it? Apparently your client did. Do you also criticize him for making such an ill-informed decision? Or did you just cash the check?

Kettle, calling pot black.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Right. So you are selling "emotions" as part of your "tweaks" as well. Good to hear that.

"Get your Uncle Jimbo's silver cable mods now and boost your confidence in your mixes."

Wow.

You don't actually hear a shit but who cares, you feel better.

And look, Uncle Jimbo feels $500 better too. Win win.

I'd like to see you talk about OPA2604's harmonic dirt that can not be heard but somehow shows up on your scope screen once again.

And how your battered and bruised 60-year old ears care about them. Or "don't care" about them.

Hmmm... Because a video-grade opamp that no one knows and uses sounds... sorry *cough* pays *cough* better...

As for my part of the the cable story, of course I did try them, I did not think they made any difference, it did not show up in the measurements I made either and I openly told my client that.

He just decided to go ahead anyway because he was selling them to his clients with a higher mark-up.

Eventually it got to a point where we fell out, because I was speaking totally out of favour of the silver cable tweak in my forums and the word gets around quick when I speak, and he wouldn't like it. So I naturally stopped supplying the material. Probably he's getting somebody else do it for him since then. Because the smell of the money from that front is immense, and he's recently got a small yacht for himself I hear. Good on him.

No different than those televangelists who sell people islands in the sun in return for their hard earned green cash to me, though. Not for me, thanks. I was sent to a religious school for three years in the earlier years of my teenages and I think I had enough of that stuff.

In fact, there is another fella here in Istanbul who is worshipped as "the" audiophile guru around the audiophile circles, whose website is internationally known and praised by some Stereophile magazine or something like that, and this guy goes around and writes tons of bullshit material about cable cooking and DAC warming and extending dynamic range by playing 500 hours of jazz music and all sorts of bull, and I wrote a few replies to his Medicine Man recipes, and he avoids me like a plague since then.

Sadly though, this guy also happens to represent a couple of monitor speaker and amp brands that I am very fond of, so I kinda shoot myself in the foot in the freebies/special deals front there as the owner of the largest and leading pro-audio forums in that country's language. Shit happens. It's one of my character defects that I never managed to learn how to get the brown envelope and shut my mouth.

By the way, I am not only an EE, I also happen to be a composer, performer and producer. So I know the both sides of the coin. Don't give me that either.



You know what, I have a better hail emoticon than that, it's from 1995 or something, with a hail coming straight from me. It conveys emotions better. Or at least certainly better than a silver cable:



B.

[Hane]

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

Try this little test, crank an API mic pre for example to MAX, plug in a 150 resistor load and Tap on the chassis and see if you can hear it...
Vibrations CAN/DO affect electronic gear of ALL types, another post showing Ethan has VERY little experience in any of this...

A variation on that test could be to expose your pre-amp to sound levels from your speakers, since there the main source of noise. Start with a sound level of say; 70db with the amp casing off then, the same test with case on. Restart the test exposing the amp to 80db sound levels, casing off then on, Repeat the same test; increasing the SPL by another 10db to the maximum your speakers and/or your neighbours can take.

As for signal sources; maybe sine wave sweep tones, music, pink noise, white noise or whatever.

Feed the pre-amp output into a daw and use a spectrum analyzer or a spectrogram to see the ouput.

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

In that case something is broken and needs replacing. But my real objection, which maybe I should have been clearer about, is the vast market of $1,000 and up "isolation" products sold to 'phooles.

--Ethan

I have heard mic input transformers with a small microphonic effect, the Jensens seem to be the quietest as they are potted very well. It's similar to an electric guitar pickup in the noise they can generate.

Discrete transistors also have a microphonic effect at high gains. Tap one with the end of a pencil and you will hear it. It's due to a piezoelectric effect of the epoxy reacting to the silicon die.

It's not too important as high gain settings are typically used for low output sources, electrically and acoustically. Loud acoustic sources that might effect the circuits will have lower gain settings removing the microphonic effect.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[Teddy Ray]

If someone wants me to grab those high end cables(two of which I own) , just holler..

I will do some exhaustive testing (according to protocols that you all give me)

and post files...

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

If someone wants me to grab those high end cables(two of which I own) , just holler..

I will do some exhaustive testing (according to protocols that you all give me)

and post files...

I think that'd be awesome!

[TurboJets]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

I have heard mic input transformers with a small microphonic effect, the Jensens seem to be the quietest as they are potted very well. It's similar to an electric guitar pickup in the noise they can generate.

Discrete transistors also have a microphonic effect at high gains. Tap one with the end of a pencil and you will hear it. It's due to a piezoelectric effect of the epoxy reacting to the silicon die.

It's not too important as high gain settings are typically used for low output sources, electrically and acoustically. Loud acoustic sources that might effect the circuits will have lower gain settings removing the microphonic effect.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

I don't think we're going to hear any more tomfoolery about microphonics and audiophiles from Ethan, Jim.

[dbbubba]

Look guys....

There are all kinds of things that can marginally or greatly improve signal path in electronics.

Yes, different cables effect the sound in mic and line level situations.
You can try a bunch of different brands of cables and jingle a set of keys in front of a mic using different mic cables and hear the difference quite clearly.

You can use AC feeder cable that causes current limiting.
You can actually damage equipment with improper interfacing and cables.
(The NL4 SPKR outlets and circuit boards where they are mounted on the Camco amps used in our Nexo array can literally be burned to a crisp with improper speaker cable gauges.)

Yeah... if you turn up the gain on almost ANY amplifying device or signal chain you can hear microphonic vibrations.
BUT WHO OPERATES THEIR EQUIPMENT UNDER THESE SITUATIONS?
NO ONE!
If you have your API mic pres set so close to a sound source that the sympathetic vibrations are loud enough to effect the API you have some pretty strange techniques!

In practical operation most of the "benefits" gained from cable tweaks are so marginal that the monetary cost so outweighs any benefitd gained it is absurd!

Sure a bored dentist (my neighbor is a dentist and brews beer) can afford to play around like this, but a studio can BARELY make ends meet as it is and if they were to throw money into things that yielded such small benefits they would be be broke before the first session was booked!

In the pro audio world I live in (large scale corporate audio) people have hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in equipment.
You just can't justify spending crazy money on things like boutique AC cables because you are carrying over 1K lbs. of AC cable to a show as it is.
What would $1K lbs. of Shunyata (sp?) cable cost?
Could you EVER justify the alleged improvement?

One thing about the quest for better audio is that you can spend A LOT of time, money and energy chasing tiny details that don't matter in the end.
You might can prove things exist by cranking the gain up on your scope, but no one can hear it IN PRACTICAL USAGE!
SPENDING THE MONEY TO ELIMINATE WHAT NO ONE CAN HEAR IS FOOLISH!
Just because things can be proved to be theoretically true doesn't mean that they are going to be a factor in practical and common usage.

This is called common sense and good business practice.
I have seen a lot of broke guys that could talk details for hours.
I have seen people spend their money on the wrong things only to go bankrupt.
The guys that are successful know where to draw the line and use their time, money and energy effectively.

I myself want to know about the quantum physics involved in audio and I am going to read and research stuff instead of earning any money with what I already do know.
My family is just going to have to suffer and fend for themselves.
I'm busy!

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

Yeah... if you turn up the gain on almost ANY amplifying device or signal chain you can hear microphonic vibrations. BUT WHO OPERATES THEIR EQUIPMENT UNDER THESE SITUATIONS? NO ONE! If you have your API mic pres set so close to a sound source that the sympathetic vibrations are loud enough to effect the API you have some pretty strange techniques!

This is the real issue - sound propagation through the air. So even in the extreme situation of gear next to a loud sound source, placing electronic gear on a special "isolation" platform will not reduce the device's internal vibration even a little.

Yet thousands of audiophiles will tell you how much improved the sound became after they bought their isolation platforms.

--Ethan

[dbbubba]

Yeah Ethan, but we are just old guitar players...
What do we know?

yes, yes, yes.... I know there are guys in this thread who are older than me and play guitar, too.

I'm just sayin'...

I am going to set my API 3124+ up on top of the subs on a show or maybe on the stage while forty kids are tap dancing just to see how it sounds.

[TurboJets]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

This is the real issue - sound propagation through the air. So even in the extreme situation of gear next to a loud sound source, placing electronic gear on a special "isolation" platform will not reduce the device's internal vibration even a little.

Yet thousands of audiophiles will tell you how much improved the sound became after they bought their isolation platforms.

--Ethan

"Audiophiles" in the context of "critical listening environments" don't have their gear setup next to a loud sound source, but the gear may be in close enough proximity to the loud sound source that subtle vibrations transfering through the floor, walls, or furniture may benefit from further isolation of the device.

A guitarist can benefit in a "live room" situation by getting their guitar amp off the floor using an amp stand or chair as an "isolation" tool, reducing the effect of vibrational transference through the floor. Tube dampers will help in such a situation also. Every little thing that can help reduce microphonics is usually worth the time/effort/$$ (if the musician or engineer desires).

I noticed Ethan in a photo advertising your new mini gobos that you have the guitar amp sitting on the floor. What's up with that? Get that amp up off the floor man, I was really surprised at that.

[nosebleedaudio]

One of the main reasons you put speaker cabs on risers is to reduce the reflection off the floor when micing..IF you plan on placing the mic say a foot back..

[TurboJets]

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

One of the main reasons you put speaker cabs on risers is to reduce the reflection off the floor when micing..IF you plan on placing the mic say a foot back..

Also, if the floor is carpeted, getting the speaker cab off the floor reduces absorption of important freq's when mic'ing or in performance (both), allowing the speakers to project out into the live space more effectively and in a more pleasing way.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by TurboJets

Also, if the floor is carpeted, getting the speaker cab off the floor reduces absorption of important freq's when mic'ing or in performance (both), allowing the speakers to project out into the live space more effectively and in a more pleasing way.

hell.... why do I find myself agreeing with you more and more!!! Disgraceful. But of course - yes. Get the darn amp off the floor.....

[nosebleedaudio]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

Look guys....

There are all kinds of things that can marginally or greatly improve signal path in electronics.

Yes, different cables effect the sound in mic and line level situations.
You can try a bunch of different brands of cables and jingle a set of keys in front of a mic using different mic cables and hear the difference quite clearly.

You can use AC feeder cable that causes current limiting.
You can actually damage equipment with improper interfacing and cables.
(The NL4 SPKR outlets and circuit boards where they are mounted on the Camco amps used in our Nexo array can literally be burned to a crisp with improper speaker cable gauges.)

Yeah... if you turn up the gain on almost ANY amplifying device or signal chain you can hear microphonic vibrations.
BUT WHO OPERATES THEIR EQUIPMENT UNDER THESE SITUATIONS?
NO ONE!
If you have your API mic pres set so close to a sound source that the sympathetic vibrations are loud enough to effect the API you have some pretty strange techniques!

In practical operation most of the "benefits" gained from cable tweaks are so marginal that the monetary cost so outweighs any benefitd gained it is absurd!

Sure a bored dentist (my neighbor is a dentist and brews beer) can afford to play around like this, but a studio can BARELY make ends meet as it is and if they were to throw money into things that yielded such small benefits they would be be broke before the first session was booked!

In the pro audio world I live in (large scale corporate audio) people have hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in equipment.
You just can't justify spending crazy money on things like boutique AC cables because you are carrying over 1K lbs. of AC cable to a show as it is.
What would $1K lbs. of Shunyata (sp?) cable cost?
Could you EVER justify the alleged improvement?

One thing about the quest for better audio is that you can spend A LOT of time, money and energy chasing tiny details that don't matter in the end.
You might can prove things exist by cranking the gain up on your scope, but no one can hear it IN PRACTICAL USAGE!
SPENDING THE MONEY TO ELIMINATE WHAT NO ONE CAN HEAR IS FOOLISH!
Just because things can be proved to be theoretically true doesn't mean that they are going to be a factor in practical and common usage.

This is called common sense and good business practice.
I have seen a lot of broke guys that could talk details for hours.
I have seen people spend their money on the wrong things only to go bankrupt.
The guys that are successful know where to draw the line and use their time, money and energy effectively.

I myself want to know about the quantum physics involved in audio and I am going to read and research stuff instead of earning any money with what I already do know.
My family is just going to have to suffer and fend for themselves.
I'm busy!

Danny one thing I absolutely agree with is the money part..
ANY business can go out of business because of this same reason, PLUS underestimating what it REALLY takes to get and KEEP the business and HOW LONG it can take...

Build it and they will come is not true most of the time IMHO...
How many people spend FAR more on a car than they need???
This is off subject but still applies..

[dbbubba]

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

Danny one thing I absolutely agree with is the money part..

Build it and they will come is not true most of the time IMHO...
How many people spend FAR more on a car than they need???
This is off subject but still applies..

It is off topic because the whole argument becomes academic after a point.

When you can only measure something and no one can really hear it IS academic.
When the effect of a component in the signal chain is so subtle that you practically have to accept it's effect on blind faith and cannot actually hear any effect it is pointless to continue to talk about it for very long.

When something falls below the threshold of human perception it is pure folly to try to get rid of it.

The only argument left is that maybe it is effecting something that we don't understand yet.

The whole idea of one person hearing something that another person can't quickly turns into a situation where the person that can "hear" the effect has to follow up by saying, "Well then... I guess my hearing is better than yours."
Either that or, "I guess that I am more experienced at hearing these types of things than you are. My ear is more trained."

If you can't describe the negative effect(s) and most people don't perceive it then what is the point?

[TurboJets]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

The only argument left is that maybe it is effecting something that we don't understand yet.

The whole idea of one person hearing something that another person can't quickly turns into a situation where the person that can "hear" the effect has to follow up by saying, "Well then... I guess my hearing is better than yours."
Either that or, "I guess that I am more experienced at hearing these types of things than you are. My ear is more trained."

If you can't describe the negative effect(s) and most people don't perceive it then what is the point?

A friend of mine and I were mixing in a beautiful little studio once and we thought we had the mix done on this one tune. The studio owner came in as we were going out to take a break and asked if he could listen to the mix while we were out. When we came back he walked over to the EQ unit in the rack (focusrite, I'm pretty sure) and notched 22.5kHz by .5dB and it opened up the whole top end on the vocals. Blew us away.

Will other people notice that? Who knows
Would I have went there? Never
Did it make a difference? Clearly
Did this guy know things we didn't? You betcha, and we learned from him that day.

That's the art of engineering though. Why does a flutist add an embellishment that some people may never notice? Because it's art...and someone will notice it; even if it's only 10 people in an audience of 250 it doesn't matter. The artist knows and it pleases them.

[TurboJets]

Originally Posted by narcoman

hell.... why do I find myself agreeing with you more and more!!! Disgraceful. But of course - yes. Get the darn amp off the floor.....

We probably agree on 95%(+) of the topics of discussion here. Probably. Few people agree on everything though. Life would be boring if we did, huh? You want me to do a progressed reading for you and tell you how this last lunar eclipse is going to affect your life over the next possible 4 years? Just kidding.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by TurboJets

subtle vibrations transfering through the floor, walls, or furniture may benefit from further isolation of the device.

That's a far cry from what Mike Keith said:

"crank an API mic pre for example to MAX, plug in a 150 resistor
load and Tap on the chassis and see if you can hear it"

Tube dampers will help in such a situation also.

Yes, and speakers and turntables too as was already acknowledged. But not solid state gear. Or CD players. Or power amps. Or any of the other BS statements the sellers of isolation products

I noticed Ethan in a photo advertising your new mini gobos that you have the guitar amp sitting on the floor.

A solid cement floor does not vibrate or transmit vibration the same as a wood floor on the second story of an old house.

--Ethan

[dbbubba]

Originally Posted by TurboJets

A friend of mine and I were mixing in a beautiful little studio once and we thought we had the mix done on this one tune. The studio owner came in as we were going out to take a break and asked if he could listen to the mix while we were out. When we came back he walked over to the EQ unit in the rack (focusrite, I'm pretty sure) and notched 22.5kHz by .5dB and it opened up the whole top end on the vocals. Blew us away.

Will other people notice that? Who knows
Would I have went there? Never
Did it make a difference? Clearly
Did this guy know things we didn't? You betcha, and we learned from him that day.

That's the art of engineering though. Why does a flutist add an embellishment that some people may never notice? Because it's art...and someone will notice it; even if it's only 10 people in an audience of 250 it doesn't matter. The artist knows and it pleases them.

That is not what I am talking about.
In your example you ALL heard the difference that the EQ change made in the mix.

Anything that "improves" the sound and or performance is perfectly valid.

I am talking about things that no one hears, but can only be detected with test equipment.

[monomer]

Originally Posted by TurboJets

Also, if the floor is carpeted, getting the speaker cab off the floor reduces absorption of important freq's when mic'ing or in performance (both), allowing the speakers to project out into the live space more effectively and in a more pleasing way.

Uuh?
.,., sorry to say but this is pretty much complete nonsense.

You don't change the absorbtion, you change your relation to it.

You are just recording less of the reflected floor sound (which in your case is partially absorbed by the carpeting) as nosebleedaudio said above.

Now you may or may not like the sound of the floor reflection (be it filtered by absorbtion or not) but moving the cab doesn't change the absorbance of the floor, just the power and time of the reflection compared to the other sounds arriving at the mic.

In fact, having the floor carpeted (and absorbing some frequencies in the reflection) is similar to having the amp higher up (but without a carpeted floor) in that both methods reduce the floor reflection.

So you only repeated what nosebleedaudio said but managed to introduce some mystical thing that is not there (change of absorbtion) but which you then make into the very reason for the change in position in relation to the floor.

Seems kind of dodgy comming from someone who is an astropsychologist...
Then again, projection is such a pretty word...

BTW, did you collect the $1.000.000,- from James Randy already?

[dbbubba]

If you are smart you have the amp angled back in the chair as well.
This keeps the reflection from hitting the floor as much.

It seems like you guys have been looking at those pictures in audio techniques books lately!

Astrophysicist?
My best friend's wife has a PHD in Physics and is a Rhodes Scholar.
She is a consultant to NASA.

She doesn't know much about audio.

(interestingly enough... she has her diplomas hanging above the toilet in a bathroom!)

[larry b]

This thread has become amazingly tangential.

[monomer]

Originally Posted by Teddy Ray

If someone wants me to grab those high end cables(two of which I own) , just holler..

I will do some exhaustive testing (according to protocols that you all give me)

and post files...

Yes, that would be very cool!.

My protocol would be pretty simple.
-make a loop on your converter (out going to in)
-play and record silence for a few seconds.
-play and record a sine wave at, say 1kHz for a few seconds.
-play and record a sine wave at, say, 10kHz for a few seconds.
-play and record a noise sample for a few seconds (needs to be a sample to be able to repeat the exact same noise sequence in the second part).
-maybe play and record a bit of your favourite music for a few seconds.

-Switch power cables on converter and repeat.
-Post files.



Maybe other people could modify this setup so we can do just one test that pleases all...

[monomer]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

If you are smart you have the amp angled back in the chair as well.
This keeps the reflection from hitting the floor as much.

It seems like you guys have been looking at those pictures in audio techniques books lately!

Astrophysicist?
My best friend's wife has a PHD in Physics and is a Rhodes Scholar.
She is a consultant to NASA.

She doesn't know much about audio.

(interestingly enough... she has her diplomas hanging above the toilet in a bathroom!)

lol,.,.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by TurboJets

We probably agree on 95%(+) of the topics of discussion here. Probably. Few people agree on everything though. Life would be boring if we did, huh? You want me to do a progressed reading for you and tell you how this last lunar eclipse is going to affect your life over the next possible 4 years? Just kidding.

nice

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by TurboJets

A friend of mine and I were mixing in a beautiful little studio once and we thought we had the mix done on this one tune. The studio owner came in as we were going out to take a break and asked if he could listen to the mix while we were out. When we came back he walked over to the EQ unit in the rack (focusrite, I'm pretty sure) and notched 22.5kHz by .5dB and it opened up the whole top end on the vocals. Blew us away.

A really nice trick is to do an extreme boost {i do it with GML stuff} waaay above human hearing. The curve sliding back down into the top end of the hearable zone has a lovely freshness about it. By the time the curve GETs down to 1khz etc - it's only pushing 1 or so dB - but it's a nice thing.

[TurboJets]

Originally Posted by monomer

Uuh?
.,., sorry to say but this is pretty much complete nonsense.

You don't change the absorbtion, you change your relation to it.

You are just recording less of the reflected floor sound (which in your case is partially absorbed by the carpeting) as nosebleedaudio said above.

Now you may or may not like the sound of the floor reflection (be it filtered by absorbtion or not) but moving the cab doesn't change the absorbance of the floor, just the power and time of the reflection compared to the other sounds arriving at the mic.

In fact, having the floor carpeted (and absorbing some frequencies in the reflection) is similar to having the amp higher up (but without a carpeted floor) in that both methods reduce the floor reflection.

So you only repeated what nosebleedaudio said but managed to introduce some mystical thing that is not there (change of absorbtion) but which you then make into the very reason for the change in position in relation to the floor.

Seems kind of dodgy comming from someone who is an astropsychologist...
Then again, projection is such a pretty word...

BTW, did you collect the $1.000.000,- from James Randy already?

Well, then we just have different ideas about recording guitar amps. If the amp is sitting on the floor and the floor is carpeted, you don't give the mic much opportunity to capture the sound of the room, do you? Personally, I like to hear a bit of the room in the capture.

And yes, "projection" is such a pretty word. It's very meaningful to most engineer's; it doesn't mean anything to you? To me, getting the amp up off a carpeted floor allows for more projection that can be captured by a room mic when overdubbing or whatever. Usually when tracking electric guitars I have a mic up near the ceiling or a room mic of some sort. The less opportunity I give the carpet to suck up my tone, the more mids I'll get in the room mic. That's just me though.

I don't view that as nonsense.

[TurboJets]

Originally Posted by monomer

Uuh?
.,., sorry to say but this is pretty much complete nonsense.

You don't change the absorbtion, you change your relation to it.

You are just recording less of the reflected floor sound (which in your case is partially absorbed by the carpeting) as nosebleedaudio said above.

Now you may or may not like the sound of the floor reflection (be it filtered by absorbtion or not) but moving the cab doesn't change the absorbance of the floor, just the power and time of the reflection compared to the other sounds arriving at the mic.

In fact, having the floor carpeted (and absorbing some frequencies in the reflection) is similar to having the amp higher up (but without a carpeted floor) in that both methods reduce the floor reflection.

So you only repeated what nosebleedaudio said but managed to introduce some mystical thing that is not there (change of absorbtion) but which you then make into the very reason for the change in position in relation to the floor.

Seems kind of dodgy comming from someone who is an astropsychologist...
Then again, projection is such a pretty word...

BTW, did you collect the $1.000.000,- from James Randy already?

Well, then we just have different ideas about recording guitar amps. If the amp is sitting on the floor and the floor is carpeted, you don't give the mic much opportunity to capture the sound of the room, do you? Personally, I like to hear a bit of the room in the capture.

And yes, "projection" is such a pretty word. It's very meaningful to most engineer's; it doesn't mean anything to you? To me, getting the amp up off a carpeted floor allows for more projection that can be captured by a room mic when overdubbing or whatever. Usually when tracking electric guitars I have a mic up near the ceiling or a room mic of some sort. The less opportunity I give the carpet to suck up my tone, the more mids I'll get in the room mic. That's just me though.

I don't view that as nonsense.