High end power cables DID make a difference, so now what?

[Rasmus Faber]

A power cable can attenuate radio frequency interference in the power supply and indeed clean up the sound.

My next step would be to really tighten up all of your AC power connections. This will reduce or eliminate what the power cord is doing for the sound but it will give you the same effect as putting an expensive power cord on every single piece of gear you have.

-------

I think Bob was kind of speaking against your point !!

Is there something I'm not reading correctly? Isnt Bob saying that power connections could have an impact on sound? I didnt really have a "point" more than I had a question. I never said I knew what caused the change I heard, just wanted to know more..

[Barish]

Microphones have no emotions.

Just record it, and post it.

Then use the same cable on your converters. Record it, post it.

Before, and after.

One at a time.

B.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by Rasmus Faber

Ok, when I find the time I will organize a blind test, and include myself, I'll find someone else to monitor it. That would be the only way to know for sure I guess..

Well, I think it is great that you are open to conducting a blind test.

So many of the folks who try this stuff say 'I know what I heard' and get all stubborn and defensive about their "hearing".

I would have to find some more people with very sensitive ears (which, despite my ironic replies, I actually believe I posess)

Suggesting a psychological explanation for certain subtle phenomena is not an insult to anyone's hearing, because we are ALL susceptible. My theory is that the truly sensitive are more susceptible because they are used to tuning in to tiny differences.

If anyone interested in this matter is in Stockholm, Sweden, feel free to chime in. I could also lend someone in town the cables to see for themselves.
Although I would want to make absolutely sure they are not biased by the pseudo-scientifical belief that there can be absolutely no difference whatsoever

You could revolutionize the science of electronics!

I know of no one who claims to hear differences in A/C cables having consistently passed a blind listening test. If you become the first, you won't have to travel far to pick up your Nobel Prize!

[Butcha]

Originally Posted by narcoman

I have a very strong opinion on it since I'm a signatory and casual member of a consortium taking legal action against three such distributors. The consortium has been pooled as witnesses for a {hopeful} government sponsored injunction against making spurious claims in safety equipment - IEC leads come under this. The consortium has already gained expert testimony from many areas... so far no experts have taken the opposing side.

I don't quite follow this. Is this regarding claims that a "better" IEC means better audio quality or is it something else? Where does the safety equipment fit in?

[Rasmus Faber]

Originally Posted by joeq

I know of no one who claims to hear differences in A/C cables having consistently passed a blind listening test. If you become the first, you won't have to travel far to pick up your Nobel Prize!

How about the people earlier in the thread who were talking about radio interference, and thickness of cable etc? Wouldnt you think thats where the answer lies?

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Rasmus Faber

Is there something I'm not reading correctly? Isnt Bob saying that power connections could have an impact on sound? I didnt really have a "point" more than I had a question. I never said I knew what caused the change I heard, just wanted to know more..

Fair enough !!

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Butcha

I don't quite follow this. Is this regarding claims that a "better" IEC means better audio quality or is it something else? Where does the safety equipment fit in?

Sales of equipment pretending to do a job that it doesn't. The consortium is dealing mainly, but limited to, safety equipment. IEC leads are on the target list.

[Butcha]

Originally Posted by narcoman

Sales of equipment pretending to do a job that it doesn't. The consortium is dealing mainly, but limited to, safety equipment. IEC leads are on the target list.

What claims are they making for their IEC cables?

[Butcha]

Also can anyone recommend a good heavy gauge, shielded IEC cable? (Taking John and Bob's comments as valid)

[narcoman]

various distributors and companies claiming cables producing "cleaner voltage", "improved bass" in hifi etc etc. You know the ones - cables costing $2000.....

[Strange Leaf]

Power cables of the finest whatever in the world won't change anything, because if you kick a hole in your wall and take a look at the power cables there, they are not the same fine quality. Rule of the weakest link apply, and changing a few meters of cables won't change shit. Sorry.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Strange Leaf

Power cables of the finest whatever in the world won't change anything, because if you kick a hole in your wall and take a look at the power cables there, they are not the same fine quality. Rule of the weakest link apply, and changing a few meters of cables won't change shit. Sorry.

hyper pertinent and nice buttocks.

[Butcha]

Originally Posted by Strange Leaf

Power cables of the finest whatever in the world won't change anything, because if you kick a hole in your wall and take a look at the power cables there, they are not the same fine quality. Rule of the weakest link apply, and changing a few meters of cables won't change shit. Sorry.

If I am rightly informed, the power cabling in walls in generally of a lot heavier gauge than a regular IEC cable. Taking John's comment about conductor size and current draw as correct then a thicker IEC would make a difference.

[TurboJets]

LOL, again with the cable-haters and converter police.

Rasmus, don't even waste your time with these people or waste your time doing some A/B test for them because it will come to nothing my friend.

Enjoy your new situation with the upgraded cables and leave them to their small little world of self-imposed mental confinement.

The moment anyone posts something like this it's an immediate feeding frenzy to see who can make you feel like an idiot first. dfegad

More power to you; no you're not "delusional" and yes upgraded power cables make a difference with everything from cable to your power supply to the power cable in your tube mic setup. Even something as simple and almost immeasurable as reducing static electricity in your signal path can make a difference in "what you hear". Usually these feeding frenzies are focused on converters or patch/instrument cables. But I can stand behind you on power cables from my days working for "no such agency" and having our electrical environment constantly worked on by contractors experimenting with better cable, insulation, huge copper bars to reduce static electricity in our listening path, and a lot of it would make subtle differences in the clarity of what we heard through our headphones. As an op, I didn't have anything invested in these high-cost experiments, nor did I really give a $hit about increasing clarity of signal...I really didn't. But when something did make a difference it was very apparent, especially to an op that used the same gear, same headphones listening to every subtle detail of intercepted live communications day in and day out and who knew the gear inside and out. I'm not an electrical engineer so I have no scientific acumen for people to obsess over but I do share your experience.

Cheers amigo.

[Froombosch]

Here you can listen to some samples we made with some preamps. On the behringer and the daking we turned the 230 V connector arround. Just a switch of the phase. And yes it is possible we had 1 mm difference in positioning of the guitar. Tell me if you can hear a difference....

www.effectprocessor.com • View topic - mike preamp shoot out

uncompressed 16/44.1 samples

[Froombosch]

Changing the powercables did have a great effect effects like changing the pvc microphone cables to polyethylene cables. It is amazing how much effect it has got. For the Dutch sluts: You are invited to listen to some cables here and listen for yourself what a difference an AC cable can make.

[joeq]

Originally Posted by TurboJets

... But when something did make a difference it was very apparent, especially to an op that used the same gear, same headphones listening to every subtle detail of intercepted live communications day in and day out and who knew the gear inside and out. I'm not an electrical engineer so I have no scientific acumen for people to obsess over but I do share your experience.

it doesn't take any deep scientific knowledge or electrical engineering degrees to pass a blind listening test

Just decent hearing (and a difference that actually exists)

Rasmus, don't.... waste your time doing some A/B test for them

Why should he be afraid to test the solidity of his perceptions?

I would want to know.

because it will come to nothing my friend.

So you are agreeing that these big differences will disappear as soon as the blindfold is on?

[grindx]

I have also A/B'ed power cables. I was monitoring through Genelec 1031A's and also encountered a grainy haze disappearing when using a higher quality power cable. I assumed it was due to shielding and a larger gauge. I didn't take them apart to compare.

I had another engineer check me on this. We used the same signal chain and the same program material. I swapped out cables without letting him know which one I was using and even lied to him about which one I was using and he caught me.

We then proceeded to check this on 1029A's and a pair of 1030A's. Same results. There was nothing magical about this. I just think the shielding kept some noise out. They were pretty short, so I don't know how much gauge played into it, but it may have. They were 12 Awg, 3 C.

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Barish

Rasmus,

We are not saying that you are full of shit. We are not saying that you are not hearing any difference either. All we are saying is that what you think is making the difference you are hearing is not what is causing the difference you are hearing.

John,

The standard for IEC C13-C14 cords that we see shipped along with the audio products is that they are capable of handling power up to 10 Amps at 250V. That makes 2500VA, which is something like 1750W.

So unless our buddy is running a small-scale Status Quo live rig in his recording studio on every single IEC cord, the chances of his standard IEC cables affecting the performance of his audio equipment due to weak conductivity is nil.

The full rundown on IEC cord standards and ratings is available here: IEC connector - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cheers.

B.

Well, here in the States we use 120VAC so we need double the conductor size. I imagine in the UK you could get away with #14 instead of #12.

That being said, a lot of the IEC cables I've seen are only #16 or #18 (some really cheap ones are even lighter) which is not adequate for a power amp. Yes, it's safe, because the draw through the cable is never long enough to actually make the cable heat up, but it still can have an audible effect on the low frequency response and on transients.

The fact is that regardless of whatever the "standard" is the gauge of your power cable to your amplifiers (including powered speakers) should probably be equal to the gauge of your building wiring to allow the amps to run as it was designed. Of course if the cable is of any significant length it needs to be thicker than if it were short. This is a case where it never hurts to "overbuild" a bit.

This being said, super expensive premium power cables are a load of bollocks.......

[John Eppstein]

Originally Posted by Butcha

Also can anyone recommend a good heavy gauge, shielded IEC cable? (Taking John and Bob's comments as valid)

Power cables generally don't need to be shielded. I believe that some raw cable companies do make shielded power cable that is intended for certain esoteric scientific applications, but audio is not one of them.

As far as who makes them, well, I make them myself when necessary - you can too.

For noise rejection installing one of those inductive chokes around the cable should be fine.

[Froombosch]

I am now trying some 1 kV power cable with PE isolation and much to thick cupper shielding. It sounds great, but it is hard to handle. Fairly cheap.

Draka Hulto EMC

[joelpatterson]

I notice a similar phenomena in a slightly different realm: sometimes my posts are really funny, but sometimes they're only so-so funny. How can that be? I'm the same me... pretty mysterious...

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by TurboJets

LOL, again with the cable-haters and converter police.

Rasmus, don't even waste your time with these people or waste your time doing some A/B test for them because it will come to nothing my friend.

Enjoy your new situation with the upgraded cables and leave them to their small little world of self-imposed mental confinement.

The moment anyone posts something like this it's an immediate feeding frenzy to see who can make you feel like an idiot first. dfegad

More power to you; no you're not "delusional" and yes upgraded power cables make a difference with everything from cable to your power supply to the power cable in your tube mic setup. Even something as simple and almost immeasurable as reducing static electricity in your signal path can make a difference in "what you hear". Usually these feeding frenzies are focused on converters or patch/instrument cables. But I can stand behind you on power cables from my days working for "no such agency" and having our electrical environment constantly worked on by contractors experimenting with better cable, insulation, huge copper bars to reduce static electricity in our listening path, and a lot of it would make subtle differences in the clarity of what we heard through our headphones. As an op, I didn't have anything invested in these high-cost experiments, nor did I really give a $hit about increasing clarity of signal...I really didn't. But when something did make a difference it was very apparent, especially to an op that used the same gear, same headphones listening to every subtle detail of intercepted live communications day in and day out and who knew the gear inside and out. I'm not an electrical engineer so I have no scientific acumen for people to obsess over but I do share your experience.

Cheers amigo.

Partial tosh - meant in a nice way !!

As long as you're not using some rubbish three strand cable there is absolutely no need to go spending the astronomical costs some distributors want. $2000 for a 2 meter IEC lead..... It's out there. Yes - get well made good quality leads - but don't go nuts and look for "audiophile IEC".... And as for your experience - I call bias and placebo..... Good quality $20 IEC is ALL that is needed.... NOTHING more.

Obsessing over top end power cables IS delusional......

There is a world of difference from repairing a system because a cable is broken and claiming great uber performance because of the ramblings of the liar companies making these things....

[Gulliver]

So, let me see if I have this right- the power comes through "X" miles (and miles?) of cable and junctions and meters and breakers from the "original power source" -presumably "the power company's grid".

Then I add just 6 feet of a different type cable to the very end of all that where it comes out of the wall and this makes an audible difference?

Please, people-think about it- apply some common sense to this claim.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

I notice a similar phenomena in a slightly different realm: sometimes my posts are really funny, but sometimes they're only so-so funny. How can that be? I'm the same me... pretty mysterious...

I noticed an improvement in your funnies when i bought a new cable.

[TurboJets]

Originally Posted by joeq

(and a difference that actually exists)




Why should he be afraid to test the solidity of his perceptions?

I would want to know.



So you are agreeing that these big differences will disappear as soon as the blindfold is on?

1. That's what he's stating, is that to his ears a "difference...actually exists"

2. I wasn't implying he should "be afraid", just that he shouldn't waste his time jumping through hoops for You when he has better things to do and has had his experience. This is where it gets to be like high school: "afraid to post an A/B test, eh?"..."afraid to prove your point, eh?"..." blah blah bloody blah. It's so ridiculous.

3. The last line you posted makes no sense to me. Sorry.

The guy makes a post outlining his experience, asks if someone has reference for him to understand it more scientifically and a bunch of guys want to piss on him and challenge him. It's childish. If you don't like what he posted, move on and keep listening to your Abba record or something.

BTW Froombosch, I hear a lot more detail and harmonics on the Daking file with the phase reversed. The difference between the 2 Daking recordings is pretty evident. Same with the 2 behringer files; the recording with ac reversed has more detail and more harmonics. More specifically the harmonics are clearer and sustain longer.

[narcoman]

[Froombosch]

Originally Posted by TurboJets

BTW Froombosch, I hear a lot more detail and harmonics on the Daking file with the phase reversed. The difference between the 2 Daking recordings is pretty evident. Same with the 2 behringer files; the recording with ac reversed has more detail and more harmonics. More specifically the harmonics are clearer and sustain longer.

Thats the reason why I posted these files. Everybody talks about what they hear. This time I found a way to show it some others.

And when I have your attention, please listen to the Duende Creatura Preamp. That preamp is so sexy.....

[narcoman]

Listened - nice sound. Unquantifiable assumptions on your behalf!! there are more differences between the takes themselves than ANY harmonic content !!


oh - and bridge rectifiers.......

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by narcoman

I noticed an improvement in your funnies when i bought a new cable.

Say.... me too!