High end power cables DID make a difference, so now what?

[Bob Olhsson]

My experience with this kind of issue has been that where there's audiophile smoke, there generally turns out to be some real systems engineering fire. It's just that these sorts of things don't travel and only apply to the system and location in question. The problem is that the audiophile crowd enjoys dreaming up magical scenarios that cast doubt on real engineering. There obviously also is plenty of real snake oil being sold in the haze that has been created by people experiencing very real audible differences that the skeptics claim to be impossible.

Audiophile magazines talk about wire geometry when different RCA connectors or the act of just cleaning an RCA connector can make an immense audible and totally measurable difference. Shielded AC cables can make a surprising, measurable difference too because so much common audio gear has incompetently designed power supplies.

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by Rasmus Faber

Ok, so where do you guys draw the line? Which equipment really sound good?
Which are only based on hypes?

If someone in here could actually lower themselves to believe I'm not all full of shit, maybe that description makes more sense? If not, then over and out people.

You are inquisitive, opened minded and curious. Those are all positive attributes.

Don't let the Flat Earth Society bother you. You have done the evaluation and have found these cables make a positive improvement. I have done the same. I have world class test gear and it's useless for these things. Your ears are good enough to prefer a mic preamp, they are certainly good enough to prefer a cable over another.

Ignore the doubting Thom's, those were the same folks back in 1492 saying you'll go off the end of the earth...

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

Ignore the doubting Thom's, those were the same folks back in 1492 saying you'll go off the end of the earth...

Bad analogy - according to the British TV show QI (which is based on interesting facts and debunking them) there's no evidence at all that people ever thought the world was flat!

I'd have thought you of all people would be aware of the external factors influencing perception...no one's saying there ISN'T an audible difference, only to prove that it's ONLY down to these special cables.

The price of them alone should make people want to be certain what is causing the improvement/difference in sound.

[BrianHanke]

Yikes, you scared me for a second. I thought there was actually such a site!

Originally Posted by sameal

cablewars.com

[sameal]

Originally Posted by BrianHanke

Yikes, you scared me for a second. I thought there was actually such a site!

with the intensity of this topic, in this forum, im surprised there isnt really.

[bmdaugherty]

I'm done here. YOU ARE CLOSED-MINDED if you won't just demo a pair. Then you can preform a scientific study in a very controlled environment and scientifically beat the subject to death. My local dealer was more than happy to lend me a pair FOR FREE! Have you not read all of my responses thoroughly?

Oh and why do I harp on Shunyata specifically? Not because they give me a boner, but because they work. I can't speak for other brands, especially because the reason I believe in shunyata is mostly because of technology that they have patented (and my ears of course). All these companies make cables differently, with different geometries and different design philosophies.

Here is some info on the science behind this cable design. (Note that the designer is an accomplished physicist.)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Shunyata.com -

A VERIFIED ADVANCE IN CONDUCTOR SCIENCE
Connecting a power or speaker cable to an amplifier would seem to be a simple matter. Get the largest wire available and make the connection as short as practical. What appears to be simple becomes complex as the physics of the problem are examined.

All wires have an inherent resistance, inductance and capacitance. This means that a cable is actually a type of simple filter. The ideal cable would have zero resistance, zero inductance and zero capacitance. A simplistic design approach would be to make the conductors larger or use multiple conductors to decrease the resistance of the cable. Unfortunately this approach increases the inductance and capacitance of the cable, which our research shows is actually more deleterious to linear signal propagation than increased resistance.

Resistance is a linear function while inductive and capacitive reactance is a non-linear function that is frequency dependent. This means that high-frequency information is skewed while phase-shift anomalies are inter-modulated with the signal.

The patented Helix geometry solves the reactance problem. The Helix maintains wide separation and 90-degree crossing angles to the conductors, which minimizes capacitance. The unique counter-rotating helices that are longitudinally offset create disparate EFF (electromagnetic flux fields) that minimize and virtually eliminate inductive reactance.


WHAT THIS MEANS
By virtually eliminating the inter-modulation distortion inherent in all other cable designs, and by minimizing capacitance, inductance and resistance, the hand-braided Helix signal and power cord designs have brought about universally documented endorsements from the world’s foremost recording engineers, studios and sound professionals, as well as the industry’s toughest critics and most renowned electronics manufacturers.

These design elements render sound with and an incredible coherence -- nothing is pushed forward, recessed or out of phase. The lack of reactance in the Helix designs insures that the phase accuracy and incendiary dynamic contrasts in sound will be delivered along with the delicate structure, natural tones and fine detail that are critical to listening involvement. These attributes will be readily apparent within any system, whether recording or playback. When Helix power and signal cables are applied as a complete system, their performance will shock even the staunchest of power cord or signal cable critics. The Helix's unlimited bandwidth, tonal finesse and top-to-bottom coherence will embarrass cost-no-object designs and re-introduce the concept of value to a market accustomed to ever-escalating prices for the same tired old technologies wrapped in a new skin.



Figure 1 is a drawing that demonstrates the complexity of the helix interlaced wire braid. While the drawing is of a simpler (6 conductor) 3x3 braid, as used in the Gemini -- the Andromeda (8 conductor, 4x4) and Orion (16 conductor 8x8) cables use a more complex braid. The Helix geometry is so intricate that every inch of the cable must be painstakingly woven by hand. This truly redefines the term “handmade”.



Figure 2 is a cross-section depiction of the helix 3x3. Notice that the two helices (spirals) rotate in opposite directions and are longitudinally offset. This proprietary arrangement minimizes capacitive and inductive reactance while rejecting external EMI and RFI interference.



Several years of research and development, using the latest in computer modeling has resulted in the creation of the ideal signal transmission geometry. Figures 7 and 8 illustrate the interaction of the magnetic lines of flux as an alternating signal is transmitted across the conductors. Clearly, no comparable products or technology exist outside of the Shunyata products that benefit from this revolutionary design process. The many awards, reviews, and professional endorsements earned by Shunyata Research's Helix products confirm the superior technology within these patented designs.


*Shunyata Research has licensed exclusive patent rights to the helix geometry developed by physicist and renowned speaker designer" -- Tierry Budge
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway here are 2 files for comparison.

One: http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1351103/TEST/one
Two: http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1351103/TEST/two

(you guys wanted a blindfolded test so I didn't label the files. I'll be back in a couple days to let you guys know which is which)

They sound different to me and will not phase cancel. The shunyata seems to have more punch and less haze in the cymbals. See if you can decide which after-market cable. The difference is subtle, similar to comparing 2 mics or pres, but there is a difference. I recorded the left speaker only. I set up a rode nt5 1m from the center of the s3a. The rode goes to an audient asp008, then to my euphonix converters. The volume of the speaker was never changed, nor was the position of the mic. I took every reasonable precaution to control the test as best I could without moving my carefully positioned speakers. I used my source deck as the master clock to ensure that the samples of the recorded audio fell at identical points in time across the recordings.

Hopefully this can provide fuel for this thread to continue for another 13 or 14 pages. (I'm sure the argument will soon turn to how poor of a job I did with the testing, which should keep things rolling for a while...) Meanwhile, I'll be enjoying my system, aftermarket power cables and all.

Have fun everyone!

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by bmdaugherty

Anyway here are 2 files for comparison.

One: http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1351103/TEST/one
Two: http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1351103/TEST/two

(you guys wanted a blindfolded test so I didn't label the files. I'll be back in a couple days to let you guys know which is which)

They sound different to me and will not phase cancel. The shunyata seems to have more punch and less haze in the cymbals. See if you can decide which after-market cable. The difference is subtle, similar to comparing 2 mics or pres, but there is a difference. I recorded the left speaker only. I set up a rode nt5 1m from the center of the s3a. The rode goes to an audient asp008, then to my euphonix converters. The volume of the speaker was never changed, nor was the position of the mic. I took every reasonable precaution to control the test as best I could without moving my carefully positioned speakers. I used my source deck as the master clock to ensure that the samples of the recorded audio fell at identical points in time across the recordings. I hear a marked difference in clarity and punch.

Hopefully this can provide fuel for this thread to continue for another 13 or 14 pages. (I'm sure the argument will soon turn to how poor of a job I did with the testing, which should keep things rolling for a while...) Meanwhile, I'll be enjoying my system, aftermarket power cables and all.

Have fun everyone!

thanks for taking the time to do that. It's the only part of your post I'm interested in. can you set up a poll to test them?

[Gulliver]

Two more points from me here..

1.) What about the condition of the power before it gets to the magic cable? How is the last six feet of wire changing anything, being passive in nature?

2.) (most importantly) Nobody buying the records I've made have (or want) $2000.00 power cables. I'm sure of it.

[BrianHanke]

The files have no extension and they don't play. I tried adding WAV, MP3, AIFF and OGG as an extension, but no luck.

Originally Posted by bmdaugherty

Anyway here are 2 files for comparison.

One: http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1351103/TEST/one
Two: http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1351103/TEST/two

[TurboJets]

Originally Posted by nosebleedaudio

I noticed TWO incorrect statements...and didn't read ALL of it...
Just goes to show that ANY web site, book ect. can/is wrong...

So true, you can go into most book stores and find 10 books about "why nothing travels faster than the speed of light" and right next to them you find 3 or 4 books about "yes, there is such a thing as 'faster then the speed of light'..."

I think in any profession/model of science/theory of art you find conflicting reference information in print and on the internet and especially rolling off the tips of tongues everywhere across the planet.

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by psycho_monkey

Bad analogy - according to the British TV show QI (which is based on interesting facts and debunking them) there's no evidence at all that people ever thought the world was flat!

I'd have thought you of all people would be aware of the external factors influencing perception...no one's saying there ISN'T an audible difference, only to prove that it's ONLY down to these special cables.

The price of them alone should make people want to be certain what is causing the improvement/difference in sound.

We have our own version of that, it's Penn and Teller's B U L L S H I T, yes, it's really called that.

However, being a history student I don't recall ever reading about the round earther's in western Europe in the 13th century. They were trading along the coast of Africa, but the common beliefs in serfdom was a flat earth, I've seen the artwork showing it with the sea monsters, etc. The Arab's never bought into that Catholic belief system.

The OP stated that the system was the same, monitors, everything. Only the cables were changed and he hears a difference. I expect no different perception/bias than one might have auditioning a new mic amplifier. Under this scenerio, everything different you hear using a different piece is only emotional based bias, not a real perception of change. To that Penn and Teller would say,
B U L L S H I T.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

[TurboJets]

Originally Posted by BrianHanke

The files have no extension and they don't play. I tried adding WAV, MP3, AIFF and OGG as an extension, but no luck.

+1 on this

the download is just an .htm file and there seems to be nothing to stream either.

Anyone else able to listen to these files?

[softwareguy]

Aren't the Shunyata materials posted discussing cables in the audio signal path? The discussion makes little or no sense in the context of a power cable.

Very interesting discussion. Can't wait to hear some actual tests.

[dbbubba]

I guess that if your mind is so technically challenged that you buy this stuff (pun intended) you can't grasp the fact the wire beyond the wall outlet is the cheapest grade that the building contractor could could use and pass code.

I am sure that you replaced it along with audiophile breakers in your load center.
Then there is the problem with the wire between the house and the transformer.
It isn't exactly audiophile either.

It sure the phuck isn't braided $4000 cable!

That transformer on that pole isn't audiophile is it?
And that 17KV feeder up on top of the poles....

I have been in audio full time since 1975 and I have seen VERY FEW audio systems that had everything so nailed down and dialed in that you could hear 6 feet of audiophile AC cable making a difference.
In fact, I have seen ZERO systems like this.

So Bob... 6 feet of specialized cable from the wall outlet to the piece of equipment with a compromised power supply is going to rectify any problems that the rest of the power grid introduce?

If the power supply is not of a high enough grade.... they don't filter well enough?
They don't supply enough amperage? Because that is all they do!
How is some shielding on 6 feet of feeder cable going to help very much?

If you buy this stuff you are pretty gullible.

[Schnert]

Has anybody collected the $1 million that James Randi has promised to anyone who can hear speaker cable differences? ($80 and $7000 ones) Or maybe all the really good ears are filthy rich already?

I'm sure he'd offer the same award for IEC-cable-ears.

[softwareguy]

BTW, have any of you opened up the power amps or other boxes that you are connecting these fabulous power cables to and examined the lead wire that's used just on the other side of the plug? You might be a little surprised.

[Teddy Ray]

Originally Posted by TurboJets

James, if I have time later to mess with the 24bit files I will, and trust me I'll do my best to get to it. I'm swamped with work right now though...fortunately. But I will give that my full attention when I can. But for now, this is what I had time to do.

all you have to do is zip up all the files, then go to YouSendIt - Send large files - transfer delivery - FTP Replacement , upload them, and then post the link....

[BrianHanke]

Still waiting for some working sample files of the holy Shunyata cables. "Emptiness is form and form is emptiness."

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by dbbubba

I ... 6 feet of specialized cable from the wall outlet to the piece of equipment with a compromised power supply is going to rectify any problems that the rest of the power grid introduce?.

I've heard it reduce noise. A $15 one will do just fine.

Obviously if it makes any difference at all, the power supply quality is in doubt. Just ask anybody in touring sound. They typically have to rebuild the power supplies of most common audio gear to avoid major and even life-threatening power supply issues in the field.

But people love to argue about this stuff.

[Schnert]

Ah, Shunyata...Well, in fear of being called close minded...I'll just have to pony up $18,200 to try out those 2,0m RCA interconnects then!

[Spike]

My take on this whole thing is as follows:

1. Pick out between 5-10 of your favourite albums, on whatever format. Check the liner notes and see where they were recorded/mixed/mastered
2. If the studios involved still exist, contact them directly, if not, talk to someone who used to work there
3. Ask: "So... what kind of IECs were you using on ALL of your equipment?" (because surely, if you use the wrong kind of IEC on ANY of the equipment that handles signal, it would taint the sound... right?)
4. Discover that probably 100% of these places either use standard, reasonably priced IECs or the power cord supplied with each piece of equipment
5. Realise that instead of obsessing over what kind of power cord you're using, the money and time would be better spent somewhere else...

[bmdaugherty]

Sorry, the extensions weren't retained when I renamed the files to make the test blind.

These work:

ONE: http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1351103/TEST/one.aif
TWO: http://files.getdropbox.com/u/1351103/TEST/two.aif

I don't know how to start a poll on a thread I did not start... Sorry

You all know that I still maintain that you have t demo them for yourselves and that this test, while it does sound different to me, comes nowhere close to doing justice to the effects that the cables have had on my system. I don't care if the files do sound identical to you...

Like I said, I don't expect this to convince anyone, just fuel the fire of this discussion and bring a whole lot of grief upon myself, but still, here ya go...

[bmdaugherty]

Closed-minded is refuting that there is a possibility that they work and not taking the time to find out for yourself, not refusing to buy them because of cost or whatever.

The same braid is used on both signal cables and power cables... The info I quoted would be true of any transmission line, regardless of application.

[BrianHanke]

Thanks, the files work now!

I heard a clear difference at first in an ABX situation. I then went to compare the files in Reaper and found that one is slightly louder than the other. I adjusted for that and went back to repeat the ABX test. I couldn't tell them apart at all the second time.

[sameal]

Originally Posted by BrianHanke

Thanks, the files work now!

I heard a clear difference at first in an ABX situation. I then went to compare the files in Reaper and found that one is slightly louder than the other. I adjusted for that and went back to repeat the ABX test. I couldn't tell them apart at all the second time.

right out of the gate on my semi decent computer speakers, i heard the slightest of volume differences. nothing in my opinion to write home about. so small, it could have been my mind playing tricks on me.

worth 4000?

nah. im getting a urei 1176 if i got four thousand to toss around.

[Jim Kerr]

Originally Posted by softwareguy

BTW, have any of you opened up the power amps or other boxes that you are connecting these fabulous power cables to and examined the lead wire that's used just on the other side of the plug? You might be a little surprised.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by bmdaugherty

They sound different to me and will not phase cancel.

Not surprising ! If you do two runs WITHOUT changing anything - they won't phase cancel. Atmospheric movement, temperature changes, AD clocking cycle etc etc


All you can do is do a "between types" test.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by bmdaugherty

Closed-minded is refuting that there is a possibility that they work and not taking the time to find out for yourself.

the whole point of science research and established fact. I don't need to go to the moon to know it's there etc etc.

But I take your point - and I'm interested enough to do this test.


And the PROPER way to do it is to pass an identical signal down both cables at the same time - THEN test for cancellation. You CANNOT mic up a speaker - it doesn't worked. I've already looked into this...

The second thing to do is then do the test for electrical power signals.

The third thing to do is to test equipment under different power condition {and this is where it falls down}. ALL amplifier and other powered equipment runs within a tolerance braid FAR in excess of minute changes within cable types. No-one has said there aren't measureable differences between cables - indeed different capacitance, resistance and SOL are all measureable. The point is that they make no difference when considering the performance of the equipment. Hence testing I guess

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Jim Williams

However, being a history student I don't recall ever reading about the round earther's in western Europe in the 13th century.

Then you've been taught wrong - as was I !!!! The Greeks had a circumference for the Earth !! As did the Norse . Only the Church tried to impose flat Earth. Copernicus measured it. Columbus was trying to circumnavigate the Earth. No civilisation from the 3rd century onwards has considered a "flat Earth " !! The idea of medieval Europeans thinking the Earth is flat is a Victorian fancy and completely and utterly unbounded in truth. Mind you - it depends how old you are : if you're my age then yes, they did say 12th century Euroboys thought of a world .....!! I remember the silly lessons myself!

[rack gear]

lets assume the cables did make a difference.

how much difference/better?

1%, 10%, 50%?

how much is someone willing to pay for the last 10%? 5%? 1%?

I dunno - maybe they did, maybe they didn't - I will always put forth:

jimi hendrix recorded on a boombox trumps just about a million dollars of anything else.