Songwriting

[The Magic Hoof]

Here's where I'm at personally, all production and recording aside. Maybe others can relate.

I'm very good at writing 'pieces' here and there. Something for a chorus, verse etc. I've got tons of those little ideas sitting around waiting to be constructed into an entire song. The biggest problem that I have though is actually doing that, as in the building a house thing. You start with a simple idea which is the foundation and then build your house (song) from that. I'm talking about the transitions of going from an intro to a verse, to a chorus, then a break and etc. You've got to add some sort of contrast when transitioning between parts of your song as well as add tension and release, have some kind of buildup.

Everything I just said seems like a piece of cake when saying it, but doing it is a completely different thing. I get stuck badly after completing a section of a song and don't know where to go from there, how to build it and transition, etc. I wouldn't call this writer's block since I can write pieces here and there just fine.

It's the art of songwriting and arrangement that I get stuck on . Anyone else experience this?

[R3altruth]

Try changing your perspective
Look at a song as a story...
I like that more organic approach to it... some people can just lay down a bridge... add a verse.. maybe a chorus last... many people like to always start with a chorus...
With me... I like the start to finish approach.... I feel like a song has to make sense... And so My main goal is to get each part to flow into the next in terms of emphasizing your point... I ask myself what I wanna say in the beginning... do I want to compound my point throughout the song... maybe my mood even changes after the first chorus... always ask what you're trying to say with the song.. and then how does each part fit into that.... Even try creating an outline that might go like this:

For Verse 1 Singer starts bitter and cynical.... Previous circumstances have the singer jaded...
as the verse goes on, intensity builds....
by the chorus the singer is angry... controlled... but angry nonetheless
By end of chorus singer realizes anger wont help so starts second verse more controlled... gains more composure... matures somewhat... understand the situation better... by the second chorus the singer accepts the situation as unchangeable and inevitable... the bridge comes and the singer feels a resurgence of the anger... but comes to terms with everything... including the anger.....

Now thats not any real song... but you get the idea.... If your song is a story.. or you're making a point or you're portraying an emotion.. then decide how it should progress... and then let it musically transistion from part to part in a manner that emphasizes your point as well... i.e. fastervocal cadence to show excitement... syncopated vocal rythms can help show frustration.... etc....

Try creating a back story for the people in your song... if its a woman singing to a man... what happened leading up to this moment.. did they just meet? or have they been together for a while.... Is it from your point of view? By defining characters... you can get a more realistic feel for what that person would say... as opposed to just random lines that rhyme....

[los marbles]

Work on it. The art of writing is about how you develop those "bits" into a complete song. It takes work to work a verse into a pre-chorus, into a chorus and so on. All these sections and transitions have to flow and and carry the piece. It takes real work but one thing that really helps this is to study the music you like and STEAL ideas.

You don't have to steal chord changes or melodies, but listen to how a top writer builds and breaks down the elements, and the moods created by the transitions.

Bits and pieces are handy but the real craft is forming them into a song that makes sense...top to bottom.

[ButchP]

Originally Posted by The Magic Hoof

Here's where I'm at personally, all production and recording aside. Maybe others can relate.

I'm very good at writing 'pieces' here and there. Something for a chorus, verse etc. I've got tons of those little ideas sitting around waiting to be constructed into an entire song. The biggest problem that I have though is actually doing that, as in the building a house thing. You start with a simple idea which is the foundation and then build your house (song) from that. I'm talking about the transitions of going from an intro to a verse, to a chorus, then a break and etc. You've got to add some sort of contrast when transitioning between parts of your song as well as add tension and release, have some kind of buildup.

Everything I just said seems like a piece of cake when saying it, but doing it is a completely different thing. I get stuck badly after completing a section of a song and don't know where to go from there, how to build it and transition, etc. I wouldn't call this writer's block since I can write pieces here and there just fine.

It's the art of songwriting and arrangement that I get stuck on . Anyone else experience this?

What you just described is what writers block is.It's about not putting the ideas together not ...not having ideas.(that's writers blockitis)

The only way I know to break through a WB is DARE TO SUCK....put those ideas together and don't worry about what they sound like or that everything isn't planned out from start to finish.When composing usually one idea begets many ideas.It's the choices you make not the ideas.Ideas are plentiful...making choices is how you learnto make choices

Same thing with lyrics.For me the concept(the nut..what the lyric is about ) is KING.Titles and lines are just picture frames.Personally I can't write very much of the lyric without hearing the music.New country music seems most of it is written without thinking of the music til later.....the music is the frame (the least important part).

Many times all of theses things come rushing at me at once.Its my job to sort them out.Try a little from column A-Z if necessary.If it doesn't all come together oh well..more ideas are waiting..I can always glean old ideas or permutate them into new ones.

IMO the most important thing is to just do it.Thinking about it doesn't help much..it usually makes it worse.The thinking should have been done LONG ago when learning the basics.

and finally don't be so hard on yourself(unless you need to be!).IMO there's no magic to this stuff. Its all in th e doing then doing it again and again....


BP

[markrmckee]

study the great songs...study for content but also study form. form is what glues the content together. i have been through the EXACT same thing you are struggling with, and i still go through the same thing with writing. i would recommend showing other people your material and possibly collaborating. collaboration can and will open up more doors than you can imagine...even with people that aren't "amazing" songwriters. so many of the greatest songs were collaborative efforts. you just have to be willing to accept an outside perspective.

the song is everything...don't cut corners!

[The Magic Hoof]

Thanks for all of the replies, very helpful. A song can made some a very simple melody or chord progression, it's just building off of that idea that I have trouble with. Form/structure is what I was ultimately referring to. Are there any books out there that cover this and offer ideas to try with your material?

[MikeTSH]

I don't write like you described par se. I just sit and play loads of random chords and sing random melodies to it. It may take forever but once I have a verse or chorus written, i continue to play, as if the song is already written and I need to carry on playing. Usually, one of the three or four verses/choruses on the same variation I come up with stick.

[Razorfish]

Braheny, The Craft and Business of Songwriting. But reading it kind of made me analyse my own songs too much for a while I feel.

I think the guy who said, Dare to Suck, is on the right track. The best songs I've written came in a one-r, but some of the ones I struggled with sometimes were necessary building blocks.

Oh, and the more equipment you have, the less inclined a lot of people are to write. Must be a lot of frustrated songwriters here...

Good luck.

Originally Posted by The Magic Hoof

Thanks for all of the replies, very helpful. A song can made some a very simple melody or chord progression, it's just building off of that idea that I have trouble with. Form/structure is what I was ultimately referring to. Are there any books out there that cover this and offer ideas to try with your material?

[picksail]

Seek a collaborator.

[A440]

What I do (not saying it will work every time!)...

You've got a great chorus....but no verse....you're stuck.

Get your little cassette recorder running (or equivalent). Say to yourself. I'm going to play the chorus then go into the verse (say to yourself that the verse already exists)...

Play the chorus...then go into the verse. What can you hear in your head when you get to that point? If you can hear something...that's your verse!

Sounds a bit mad I know, but it often works for me.

[Unclenny]

I find that when I spend too much time crafting a song it tends to lose its emotional impact.

While I know that it is important to learn good writing technique (even though I never got around to it), the best songs are those where said technique is hidden within the fabric of the song allowing the tune to flow naturally.

When I find myself stuck on the structure of a song I often put it aside and work on something else. It will quite often sneak back into my consciousness a few days later feeling more cohesive.

[memphisindie]

Dare to suck is the best for me, just write through it, put some stuff together and don't spend too much time overperfecting it, just get it together and tweak a little then LEAVE IT ALONE, if it doesn't suck, add it to your catalogue, if it does, work on another and keep writing through. Also, do you write at a certain time of day? You should, set aside songwriting time. Don't let anything interrupt it and enlist support for that with your team, control your environment, it will always win, in no time, at those times, you'll be writing up a storm.

[Adlen]

My girlfriend goes out into some isolated bit of countryside and gets inspired by that. She writes fragments and then later puts them together into a song.

I write in a similar way but rather than going anywhere, I always get ideas when I'm on the bus or train or even just walking around Metropolis. I can never put them into a decent song though. I really should try harder soon.

[MikeFFG]

Originally Posted by R3altruth

Try changing your perspective
Look at a song as a story...
I like that more organic approach to it... some people can just lay down a bridge... add a verse.. maybe a chorus last... many people like to always start with a chorus...
With me... I like the start to finish approach.... I feel like a song has to make sense... And so My main goal is to get each part to flow into the next in terms of emphasizing your point... I ask myself what I wanna say in the beginning... do I want to compound my point throughout the song... maybe my mood even changes after the first chorus... always ask what you're trying to say with the song.. and then how does each part fit into that.... Even try creating an outline that might go like this:

For Verse 1 Singer starts bitter and cynical.... Previous circumstances have the singer jaded...
as the verse goes on, intensity builds....
by the chorus the singer is angry... controlled... but angry nonetheless
By end of chorus singer realizes anger wont help so starts second verse more controlled... gains more composure... matures somewhat... understand the situation better... by the second chorus the singer accepts the situation as unchangeable and inevitable... the bridge comes and the singer feels a resurgence of the anger... but comes to terms with everything... including the anger.....

Now thats not any real song... but you get the idea.... If your song is a story.. or you're making a point or you're portraying an emotion.. then decide how it should progress... and then let it musically transistion from part to part in a manner that emphasizes your point as well... i.e. fastervocal cadence to show excitement... syncopated vocal rythms can help show frustration.... etc....

Try creating a back story for the people in your song... if its a woman singing to a man... what happened leading up to this moment.. did they just meet? or have they been together for a while.... Is it from your point of view? By defining characters... you can get a more realistic feel for what that person would say... as opposed to just random lines that rhyme....

I like all this! I have the same problem as you...It's almost about motivation or something. Coming up with cool parts is easy for me, but putting them together in a way that makes sense...or forcing myself to come up with another part that isn't "flowing" is difficult and you almost have to force yourself to do it...This music thing is supposed to be fun right? but sometimes it can be hard also!

Let's say this...Elliott Smith is one of the great songwriters of our time (not looking for a fight here but come on, you have to admit he's PRETTY good at least!). Well a very paraphrased quote of his from an interview always stuck with me. "I'm most interested in the transitions between sections of songs than anything else"...again definitely paraphrased...

But it always stuck with me that one of my most idolized songwriters spends most of his time on transitioning between parts, rather than the prts themselves....

[memphisindie]

Originally Posted by MikeTSH

I don't write like you described par se. I just sit and play loads of random chords and sing random melodies to it. It may take forever but once I have a verse or chorus written, i continue to play, as if the song is already written and I need to carry on playing. Usually, one of the three or four verses/choruses on the same variation I come up with stick.

You also write really Good tunes!

[RTR]

Originally Posted by The Magic Hoof

Here's where I'm at personally, all production and recording aside. Maybe others can relate.

I'm very good at writing 'pieces' here and there. Something for a chorus, verse etc. I've got tons of those little ideas sitting around waiting to be constructed into an entire song. The biggest problem that I have though is actually doing that, as in the building a house thing. You start with a simple idea which is the foundation and then build your house (song) from that. I'm talking about the transitions of going from an intro to a verse, to a chorus, then a break and etc. You've got to add some sort of contrast when transitioning between parts of your song as well as add tension and release, have some kind of buildup.

Everything I just said seems like a piece of cake when saying it, but doing it is a completely different thing. I get stuck badly after completing a section of a song and don't know where to go from there, how to build it and transition, etc. I wouldn't call this writer's block since I can write pieces here and there just fine.

It's the art of songwriting and arrangement that I get stuck on . Anyone else experience this?

IM right here with ya..I must have hundreds of potential HIT courses and verses laying around here..see I play a guitar, piano, bass, what ever and I will hit on a nice chord and start building..I always have the music first..then let's say I have an idea for a verse..and wow what a kick ass verse it is..but then I'm in a corner..cant think of anything else to say..or the whole thing sounds Corney all of a sudden!!! I have ton's of half finished songs laying here..It's sucks and sometimes just makes me want to quit after23 years of music!!!

[RTR]

Originally Posted by Razorfish

Braheny, The Craft and Business of Songwriting. But reading it kind of made me analyse my own songs too much for a while I feel.

I think the guy who said, Dare to Suck, is on the right track. The best songs I've written came in a one-r, but some of the ones I struggled with sometimes were necessary building blocks.

Oh, and the more equipment you have, the less inclined a lot of people are to write. Must be a lot of frustrated songwriters here...

Good luck.

+100000...I often put down my pen and pad and start looking for new gear!!!

[TheRealRoach]

Originally Posted by picksail

Seek a collaborator.

+1 Best advice so far.

There's sometimes a stigma associated with the word "collaborator," but it really is a very enjoyable way to work if you find the right person who is complimentary to your style, ability and approach.