Phase...bass di and mic

[desol]

Anyone got any tips on getting good phase between a di and a mic....on bass...?

[not_so_new]

Yep....

thumbsup

[Dragonfly]

If you're using PT or a similar DAW, zoom in on the recorded waveforms the maximum that it can go, and drag the signal back to match that of the earlier signal. It could be as short as 26 samples, as was the case with one of my own projects. Made a huge difference.

Dante

[Jay Kahrs]

Move the mic around until it's in phase with the DI. Meaning, so it sounds good and is cancelling a minimum of frequencys. Or, you could put a scope on there and use that as a reference.

[paterno]

Originally Posted by not_so_new

Yep....

thumbsup

yes, the IBP is perfect for this application. It is also great in a ton of multi-mic situations : Little Labs

John

[gear is cool]

another vote for the little labs, i use it all the time for just this purpose bass mic/di
and it works like a charm! i used it the other day for re-amping a bass di into a svt and it worked great...also it has a nice di
joe
www.orbitaudiorocks.com

[junior]

haven't tried it yet, but phasetone is free: http://www.tritonedigital.com/products.htm

[DirkB]

Little labs IBP all the way. Great bass DI too. Make both signals sounding as good as you can seperately. Then put one through the IBP and invert the phase and tweak for maximum cancelation. Flip phase back and BAM, best phase cohereny you're gonna get. .

I use it on close kick and outer kick mic too and don't necessarily go for perfect phase. It can be very cool to have the two kick signals cancel a little out and have a perfect kickdrum sound with much less eq.

Also works on 2 guitar mics but can be a little hit or miss in that application.

Highly recommended!

Good luck,
Dirk

[toolskid]

another vote for the IBP! Killer for this application, smokes just time-aligning the two signals

[ProFool]

are you talking about tracking or in a live situation? in tracking i know the DI signal always comes in a little earlier, like 2 a 3 ms. so in Pt for example nudge back the mic signal 2 a 3ms or while recording put a 2 a 3 ms delay on the Di track. grtz

[DirkB]

Originally Posted by ProFool

are you talking about tracking or in a live situation? in tracking i know the DI signal always comes in a little earlier, like 2 a 3 ms. so in Pt for example nudge back the mic signal 2 a 3ms or while recording put a 2 a 3 ms delay on the Di track. grtz

It's not just a latency issues or a time delay. You're hearing the mic signal later because there is a distance the sound needs to travel from the cab to the mic. The phase relationship changes compared to the DI signal during this time.
Although with bass it can work since the lower frequencies have a long wavelength which means that it takes longer for the phase to change significantly.

Personally I thinks it's better to deal with these kind of issues while tracking on not have to start fixing things after the fact.

Greetings,
Dirk

[kwhatx]

As said earlier, moving mic around is first thing to try. After that, it's Little Labs IBP all the way.

[e-cue]

Originally Posted by DirkB

Make both signals sounding as good as you can seperately. Then put one through the IBP and invert the phase and tweak for maximum cancelation. Flip phase back and BAM, best phase cohereny you're gonna get.

I'd specifically suggest using it on the channel (in this case, the D.I.) that's closest to the source. Also, after I flip the Ø button back to normal on the IBP, I usually sweep around a little bit with the track unsolo'ed to see if being slighty off sounds better in the track.

Originally Posted by kwhatx

As said earlier, moving mic around is first thing to try. After that, it's Little Labs IBP all the way.

In general, I place the mic where it sounds best on it's own, then IBP the DI to it. I always seem to get better results doing this as opposed to moving my placement into Ø with the d.i.


YRMV, especially with the i.b.p.

[adamcal]

Ive only had my IBP for a few weeks now, but Ive also found the setting I like best in solo is not really how I like it in the mix.

It would be obvious to think that "the most bass" would be the correct setting, but its not allways so. This whole phase sweeping thing is very complex, and the theory behind it all is well into the territory of full on complex maths, far more so than a simple time shift.

Sure a time shift will put a one given frequency back in phase with itself (assuming its polarity is the same), but what about all the other frequencies that make up our bass sound, what about the eq curve of the amp/speaker/air/mic combination versus the DI with a totally different curve. Even the IBP doesn't let you get EVERYTHING in phase, but it does allow you shape various frequencies phase to get a more pleasing result.

And in a mix with the other instruments playing, as you adjust the IPB you can hear the bass AMP/DI combo changing shape, you may cancel some boominess or honkyness and really like that as an example, so that means you are actually getting the boomy tones OUT of phase in fact. Kind of like EQing by phase adjusting. then of course there is the added variable of the level between the tracks, makes all the difference as to what happens. not to mention if you happen to EQ or compress one of the tracks and not the other, more variables and phase shifts that affect everything else you have done. it can become quite a can of worms.

but as Ive said its only been a few weeks with the IBP for me and I just trying to understand this complex issue, at the end of the day, thousands of awesome bass sounds have existed on albums before time slipping and phase adjusting was an option to engineers. If you cant get a great AMP/DI combo with just mic position and a simple phase button then you need to work harder on your AE skills. however if you are interested in exploring something new, phase tools like the IBP are a cool new option.

and you really you don't need to understand all the theory, plug it in, turn the knob push a few buttons and see what you got.





PS.... Hmmm, now a multiband IBP, thers an idea. my head hurts just thinking about it.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

Move the mic around until it's in phase with the DI. Meaning, so it sounds good and is cancelling a minimum of frequencys. Or, you could put a scope on there and use that as a reference.

Uhhhh... you have one signal that is moving at the speed of light through your recording chain and a second signal that is moving at the speed of light through an amplifier, to a speaker [longer path but we're still talking "nano-seconds"]... and then travels at the speed of sound for a few inches until it hits a microphone.

We're talking maybe 1/2 a millisecond of delay on the long side... probably closer to 1/4 or 1/3rd of a millisecond... in other words, you can minimize the not so cool shit in the phase relationship of the mic to the DI with moving the mic around... but you're never really going to get it quite as close to locked as you will with an IBP... which doesn't quite get you to the 1/4 to 1/2 a MS of delay, but it does get you in the ballpark quite a bit faster and easier than moving a mic around and hoping it fits in the mix later.

FWIW... I generally track both but only listen to one for the rest of tracking... when mix time comes I'll whip out the IBP and tweeze the bass until it fits in the song properly... there have been times when I have actually commited two IBP's in series to the DI line on the bass and then IBP'ed the composite bass track to work really well with the kik drum... it's why I have a rack of 4 of the little buggers.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by ProFool

are you talking about tracking or in a live situation? in tracking i know the DI signal always comes in a little earlier, like 2 a 3 ms. so in Pt for example nudge back the mic signal 2 a 3ms or while recording put a 2 a 3 ms delay on the Di track. grtz

The ballpark computation is about one millisecond per foot between the mic and the cab. (Speed of sound at sea level: 1102 ft/sec.)

[desol]

Thanks Fletcher!...and everyone for the replies! I'm definately going to pick this unit up...maybe 2. There's just no excuses anymore for crappy phase problems...and more of a reason for having clearer, fuller sounding mixes...

It's kinda pricey tho...500 bones?
But i guess that's a small price to pay...for getting good, reliable phase.

Thanks again! stike

[not_so_new]

Originally Posted by desol

It's kinda pricey tho...500 bones?
But i guess that's a small price to pay...for getting good, reliable phase.

Thank me later....

thumbsup

[e-cue]

Originally Posted by desol

It's kinda pricey tho...500 bones?
But i guess that's a small price to pay...for getting good, reliable phase.

Thanks again! stike

And a great D.I.

And a great reamp that you can split between two instrument amps with transformer isolation so the mofo won't buzz (I've had other reamp product buzz on me WITH the groundlift engaged).

And a buffered instrument level output for driving long guitar cables.


If you don't need the add on's, the jr is the way to go, but I find them worth the extra dough.

[toolskid]

Originally Posted by e-cue

And a great D.I.

And a great reamp that you can split between two instrument amps with transformer isolation so the mofo won't buzz (I've had other reamp product buzz on me WITH the groundlift engaged).

And a buffered instrument level output for driving long guitar cables.


If you don't need the add on's, the jr is the way to go, but I find them worth the extra dough.

I totally agree, the IBP is a bargain to be honest