Regards to the $10/hr studio time post

[GetAural]

I found this on craigslist and it had me in tears lol. For some reason I think somebody from here posted this. It has Gearslut written all over it lol. If they are not a GearSlut they are at Heart

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Att: MORONS-Recordings for $10.00 an hour are Suicide!

ATTENTION ALL MORONS:

I DARE you to pay $10.00 an hour and expect anything more than the sound quality that comes out of your order speaker at the McDonalds Drive-Thru Window.

Let all these Frauds go back to working at Home Depot, Taco Bell or perhaps they can suck off of their Trust Funds until they choke.

But DO NOT give them 10 CENTS for recording with the idea you'll sound like ANYTHING. These THIEVES are just killing your dream.

EVEN IF they have PROTOOLS HD, a Neumann Mike and a NEVE module.

They pose as Producers, Arrangers, Engineers who have installed HOME DEPOT PATIO DOORS in their apartments to create control room/studio situations....-in reality-you wouldn't trust HALF of these criminals to wash your CAR!

Don't believe it? Ask to hear their work and if YOU'RE lucky-they'll play you something SOMEONE else recorded in a PRO Studio with a PRO Staff and spare you the reality of their terrible work until they've ruined YOUR MUSIC.

Wake up everyone-The labels are getting THOUSANDS of submissions a month.
You think ANYONE's gonna be taken seriously after recording in Billy-Bob's Bedroom? (Why NOT???? HE JUST STARTED AUDIO SCHOOL LAST FRIDAY!!!)

Oh yeah, add to the fact that to make up for his lack of Proper Monitoring Environment and the fact that he'll wake up his Landlady/Neighbors/Mommy, Billy-Bob Mixes on Headphones and tells you it's the "ONLY WAY TO FLY-ALL OF the GREAT Mixers use HEADPHONES to MIX!!!!".

Have you puked yet? I hope so. Have a slice of Reality Pie.

Get real everone. Then perhaps you'll be able to fill the Major Record Company's DESPERATE Need for bands.

For the RECORD, That is a DIRECT QUOTE from a MAJOR LABEL EXEC that SIGNS bands... Not some intern who get's him coffee. They Need bands-But they need bands that sound PRO.

I am definately eager to discuss this at length with ANYONE who is smart enough to realize the true scene in Professional -Vs- Amateur recording today.

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[bunnerabb]

I'm tracking in my apartment, this winter.

This will allow me to write the songs and parts and flesh them out.

The discs from those sessions are going to the people who will actually be playing on the record.

After we rehearse it and get it ready to track, I'm honking up for a good studio with all the mod cons.

If...

.. however, a track or two of the bedroom stuff sounds EXACTLY like the part in my head, it's a keeper and it's gonna get striped and yanged into the final mix.

[Jay Kahrs]

Originally Posted by bunnerabb

.. however, a track or two of the bedroom stuff sounds EXACTLY like the part in my head, it's a keeper and it's gonna get striped and yanged into the final mix.

That's the way it should be!

[Kestral]

On one hand, I agree with the sentiment of the ad.

On the other, I can't help but remember how I started was that a friend was trying to record his band himself and was having a lot of trouble so he asked me to come over, I did a few things and it sounded much better so he asked me to produce the album.

The "studio" was basically a spare bedroom in the band's house. The gear was a PC (a PC! Not even a Mac!) running and old version of Logic Audio Platinum with an Audiowerk8 card and I managed to convinced them to rent ONE preamp, a prosumer Summit MPC-100A tube preamp/compressor (not even a Neve). No Neumann mics, just a SM57 and a cheap Oktava condenser.

One song ended up being picked up by a TV show for a theme song (show still runs twice a day), nominated for a national award.

Another song became a cult club hit in Europe.

Yet another song was nominated for an International songwriting award.

Numerous reviews from various media on the around the world on the album, all positive.

Funny enough I just sold a guitar pedal to someone and while we were talking the guy recognized my name and said, "You produced THAT album right? It sounds great!" I couldn't believe it, I didn't think people knew or cared.

But yeah, it was done on a crappy PC, an Audiowerk8 card, one OK tube channel strip, two low end mics and a few synths and guitars that look like something you see in a pawn shop (because that's where they were acquired).

So the answer is: it depends. I own a Neve module (no Neumann mic yet) and will be running Pro Tools LE in my new setup and it will be at home, but the results will be pro because of the person running the gear, not because I blew a quarter million dollars on an SSL console and another quarter million on renovations and acoustic treatment.

[GetAural]

Originally Posted by Kestral

On one hand, I agree with the sentiment of the ad.

On the other, I can't help but remember how I started was that a friend was trying to record his band himself and was having a lot of trouble so he asked me to come over, I did a few things and it sounded much better so he asked me to produce the album.

The "studio" was basically a spare bedroom in the band's house. The gear was a PC (a PC! Not even a Mac!) running and old version of Logic Audio Platinum with an Audiowerk8 card and I managed to convinced them to rent ONE preamp, a prosumer Summit MPC-100A tube preamp/compressor (not even a Neve). No Neumann mics, just a SM57 and a cheap Oktava condenser.

One song ended up being picked up by a TV show for a theme song (show still runs twice a day), nominated for a national award.

Another song became a cult club hit in Europe.

Yet another song was nominated for an International songwriting award.

Numerous reviews from various media on the around the world on the album, all positive.

Funny enough I just sold a guitar pedal to someone and while we were talking the guy recognized my name and said, "You produced THAT album right? It sounds great!" I couldn't believe it, I didn't think people knew or cared.

But yeah, it was done on a crappy PC, an Audiowerk8 card, one OK tube channel strip, two low end mics and a few synths and guitars that look like something you see in a pawn shop (because that's where they were acquired).

So the answer is: it depends. I own a Neve module (no Neumann mic yet) and will be running Pro Tools LE in my new setup and it will be at home, but the results will be pro because of the person running the gear, not because I blew a quarter million dollars on an SSL console and another quarter million on renovations and acoustic treatment.

I am also a believer in, it's not the car it's the driver philosophy, but $10 an hour.

[Toad]

We are going to see more & more "hits" created in "bedroom" studios!!

[Gregg Sartiano]

O.K., but he still has a point. Young artists (generally) are not producing themselves; they need somebody from the outside world to take their (sometimes very) raw material and make a finished product. For people who are trying to move into a music career, the CD they get will be absolutely responsible for their success/lack thereof, at least for the 6 mos./yr it takes them to scrimp & save to do another.

SO WHY DO SO MANY BANDS/ARTISTS WANNA DO EVERY F&^KING SONG THEY'VE EVER WRITTEN WHEN THEY COULD SPEND THE SAME $$$ ON 2, 3 or 4 WITH NO COMPROMISES PRODUCTION?!?

[wyndrock]

Perhaps some of these guys that go out and charge cut-rates are really making the best of their situation, and are working with what they have. Do they not deserve to get a little kickback on their amateur efforts?

Just have go on about doing your thing and don't worry about what the amateur is doing. Let the amateur charge $10, and you move on. Go on about your professional career, knowing that in the end that your professionalism and quality work will rise to the top. ...you're too busy with studio maintenance to care about silly stuff like this anyway right?

[jgrif08]

Originally Posted by wyndrock

Perhaps some of these guys that go out and charge cut-rates are really making the best of their situation, and are working with what they have. Do they not deserve to get a little kickback on their amateur efforts?

Just have go on about doing your thing and don't worry about what the amateur is doing. Let the amateur charge $10, and you move on. Go on about your professional career, knowing that in the end that your professionalism and quality work will rise to the top. ...you're too busy with studio maintenance to care about silly stuff like this anyway right?

AMEN!

I'm very seriously considering turning my setup (after a few more improvements) into a (roughly) $12 - $15 an hour recording studio. It's money on the side for me and I know that I can't charge any more than that and actually expect to get any business.

I don't have a whole 'lot to back it up right now, but I KNOW beyond any doubt that I can turn out some good mixes for the prices I am going to charge.

People HATE to be undersold, which I think is the root of this thread. But times are changing. The days when you could get away with such a blanket statement as 'All studios that charge $10 an hour are total garbage' are long gone.

Open your mind, get with the times. Don't waste your breath bitching about bargain basement studios taking your business.

Do your thing and let the forces of a free market decide if your servies are worth the extra money.

[zakco]

For the first couple of years after opening a commercial studio and quitting my day job, I used to REALLY stress out over this. It seemed so threatening, this concept of someone undervaluing my livelihood. At that point there were maybe 3 or 4 amature operations in my area, all turning out complete crap, yet I still worried alot about them.

Six years later there are literally "studios" on every street. Some of them are charging NOTHING, some are charging $15-30 per hour. Some of them even do decent work...

In this time have learned to relax a bit, be confident in my own abilities and the quality of product that comes out of our studio and simply NOT WORRY ABOUT THINGS THAT I HAVE NO CONTROL OVER. As a matter of fact I'm starting to see more and more work mixing/mastering for home recordings. These are people who simply could/would not have come here for the whole project anyways and this is work that wouldn't have even existed before the whole home studio revolution thing....I'm even starting to really enjoy some of these projects.

In the end my business has grown, not decreased, I've gained many new clients and as others have mentioned, it's the end result that counts anyways, and quality will usually rise to the top in the recording biz.

I do want to mention though that I think it's important to encourage people to charge what they're really worth. There are a couple of young, local producers in my area that I think are really talented and are creating IMO a decent product. I've gone out of my way to encourage them to charge real money both for their own benefit and for the health of our local music industry.


-Z-

[zakco]

Originally Posted by jgrif08

People HATE to be undersold, which I think is the root of this thread. But times are changing. The days when you could get away with such a blanket statement as 'All studios that charge $10 an hour are total garbage' are long gone.

This is probably true but...anyone doing quality, professional calibre work for that price is doing a disservice to both themselves and their peers who god forbid might have a dream of say...owning a modest home, raising a family or maybe, I dunno....EATING once a day.

The RIGHT price for a studio should be determined by:

A. The product
B. Capital Investment
C. What the market will bear

I'm not saying what that price is, but think about it a bit....

-Z-

[opium89]

LOL! Another bitter engineer who probably is up to his ass in debt for the 500 grand in equipment he bought on credit. Said engineer is now loosing his ass to the kids who figured out he was just a sham and never cared about making music, only suckering musicians into paying him oodles of money for sub-standard recordings that he was happy to sit around and not offer any suggestions while the bands he recorded wasted time and precious money to understand what they needed to do to get a good recording out of him.

I guess no one ever told him that labels don't care how good the recording is and that they are only interested in the songs themselves. For all they care, it could have been recorded on a boom box with Mr. Microphone.

Where's this guy's email? I'd love to have a poop in his Cheerios!

P.S. On the other hand, maybe he is just an honest guy trying to make a living and is unfortunate having gotten in to this business way too late. =P

[jgrif08]

Originally Posted by zakco

The RIGHT price for a studio should be determined by:
C. What the market will bear

I'm not saying what that price is, but think about it a bit....

-Z-

'nuff said.

[jgrif08]

Originally Posted by opium89

LOL! Another bitter engineer who probably is up to his ass in debt for the 500 grand in equipment he bought on credit. =P

Probably closer to bullseye on that one than even you realize

[robot gigante]

Ouch. Buying equipment on credit is amazingly stupid.

Then again, so is charging $10 an hour.

Clash of the morons, I suppose.

SO WHY DO SO MANY BANDS/ARTISTS WANNA DO EVERY F&^KING SONG THEY'VE EVER WRITTEN WHEN THEY COULD SPEND THE SAME $$$ ON 2, 3 or 4 WITH NO COMPROMISES PRODUCTION?!?

No kidding!

[jgrif08]

Originally Posted by robot gigante

Ouch. Buying equipment on credit is amazingly stupid.

beg to differ.

I've purchased thousands of dollars worth of gear, without paying a penny of interest, all on credit.

Take a second look at some of those credit card offers you throw away. Zero percent introductory APR's and zero percent APR's on balance transfers abound. Card companies just bank on you being to lazy to make on time payments EVERY month.

Despite what you may have heard, 'credit' is NOT a dirty word

[zakco]

Originally Posted by robot gigante

Ouch. Buying equipment on credit is amazingly stupid.

That's a ridiculous statement. Sure you need to excercise some common sense and not hang your ass out in a stupid manner, but very few businesses of any kind begin in the black.

-Z-

[wyndrock]

stay the course. soon the talent will tire of the botched recordings.

[Confusionator]

Embrace the trend! Charge $5 per hour!

[mahasandi]

you dare to come in a SLUTZ den and badmouth Credit Cards?

whats the world come to?

however, i like the "clash of the morons" but the sequel was better..

[noiseintheattic]

There's a fine line to walk in this thread but I have to stand in the "don't undervalue the work" camp. Is there really any incentive at all to become a "good" AE if you can only hope to make $10 - $15 an hour? I don't think so. You would be far better served to find another career. Please spare me the "you should only do it for the love it of" prattle because we all need to make a living. I hear a lot of talk in these forums about the decline of the AE - given this thread it makes sense that people are not "wasting" their time learning how to be a good AE when there is no incentive to do it. Just grab an Mbox and a 57 and get to work.

All of this reluts from a crisis of culture and values. I find it very depressing that in the USA we pay teachers about $40k a year and baskeball stars makes millions. (applying massive amounts of flame ******ant now) -- Rob

[Bassmankr]

If you are that desparate for side money, give music lessons. You will be able to charge MORE and give two of them per hour (even more money LOL). If you have to insist on working for so little side money because you need cash, play in a band at some local place that normally doesn't have bands instead (or run their sound if you don't play), you will be at least be supporting live music in your town with your low wages while you network with other musicians coming in to listen and you won't have to kiss the ass of some star wannabe calling the shots for $10 in your studio that can't sing or play in tune. People that are SERIOUS about learning a craft and want to be respected by others in that industry should not harm others. It is better to work for free to learn your craft than to undercut. The bands you work with today for free will pay a good hourly wage in the future if they like your product.

[kats]

I think this home recording boom is the best thing that ever happened. The guys I get in here are so much more educated and totally appreciate what I can do - plus they appreciate the recording chain and want to "talk shop" - I love it!

I also believe it raised the bar. If your not good, you get called out pretty fast. If you can't do a better job than an amateur at home, you don't belong in the business.

IME the only guys I find that think a "Pro" studio is a waste of time are usually beginners who haven't developed an ear for the job yet. They're the same ones who don't appreciate and realize how wonderfull a collaborative effort can be. They're just simply not ready. OTOH, there's a group of DIYers that are quite excellent. Just because you have a "Pro" studio doesn't give you the monopoly on talent.

So this whole debate is really case specific. It's also very genre specific. It's a bit narrow minded to think that studios cater primarily to pop bands. How many basement studios are recording string sections, soundtracks, live of the floor performances? What do you think? The world revolves around recording instruments one at a time to a click track and compressing the snot out of it with a bunch of plugz?

C'mon boys, the musical world is a big place. Basement studio's are so low on the radar when it comes to the grand scheme of things in this business.

[Curve Dominant]

Originally Posted by opium89

I guess no one ever told him that labels don't care how good the recording is and that they are only interested in the songs themselves.

Actually, neither one of those considerations is highest on the list of a major label's priorities.

What they're really looking for, is acts that will go over well on Regis & Kelly, Total Request Live, et al. Because those are the first places they're going to send you for national exposure.

Acts like that only get noticed by the labels, because they're already competing with the labels on a local and regional level.

And in order to do that, you're back to needing something peeps in your region will want to pay for: A quality recording that sounds as good as the Foo Fighters, etc.

So you can make a cheap recording, and it will sound fine. But can you find 10K - 15K people who will be willing to buy it? Not so easy all of a sudden.

One in a million cheap productions end up like Kestral's, that fuel the fantasy that anyone can make a hit in their bedroom. Anyone can win the lottery too, but you're more likely to spend that $5 every day for the rest of your life and get nothing.

The truly ambitious music acts will pony up the $$$ for good production. I've found that you can get MORE business by telling people, straight up: "I am NOT the cheapest in town, that's WHY some people hire me."

YMMV

-Eric @ Studio Curve Dominant

[Jonboy79]

Originally Posted by noiseintheattic

There's a fine line to walk in this thread but I have to stand in the "don't undervalue the work" camp. Is there really any incentive at all to become a "good" AE if you can only hope to make $10 - $15 an hour? I don't think so. You would be far better served to find another career. Please spare me the "you should only do it for the love it of" prattle because we all need to make a living. I hear a lot of talk in these forums about the decline of the AE - given this thread it makes sense that people are not "wasting" their time learning how to be a good AE when there is no incentive to do it. Just grab an Mbox and a 57 and get to work.

All of this reluts from a crisis of culture and values. I find it very depressing that in the USA we pay teachers about $40k a year and baskeball stars makes millions. (applying massive amounts of flame ******ant now) -- Rob

Why would only charging 15 bucks an hour make you not want to be a better engineer? That just doesn't make any sense at all. I'm very cheap in my area and do work that everyone appreciates and everyday I strive to be a better AE, I don't need to charge 50 bucks an hour to motivate myself. I'd also have very few customers if I charged anything close to that. Some people on this board need to also realize that not every cd some of us record is going to be a commercial release or even intended for that. 99% of the bands I record simply want a really good demo to show off to fans, friends, family and maybe a label or two. I'm not trying to win a grammy here, I'm trying to help local bands realize a small dream.

[Jonboy79]

Originally Posted by Curve Dominant

Actually, neither one of those considerations is highest on the list of a major label's priorities.

What they're really looking for, is acts that will go over well on Regis & Kelly, Total Request Live, et al. Because those are the first places they're going to send you for national exposure.

Acts like that only get noticed by the labels, because they're already competing with the labels on a local and regional level.

And in order to do that, you're back to needing something peeps in your region will want to pay for: A quality recording that sounds as good as the Foo Fighters, etc.

So you can make a cheap recording, and it will sound fine. But can you find 10K - 15K people who will be willing to buy it? Not so easy all of a sudden.

One in a million cheap productions end up like Kestral's, that fuel the fantasy that anyone can make a hit in their bedroom. Anyone can win the lottery too, but you're more likely to spend that $5 every day for the rest of your life and get nothing.

The truly ambitious music acts will pony up the $$$ for good production. I've found that you can get MORE business by telling people, straight up: "I am NOT the cheapest in town, that's WHY some people hire me."

YMMV

-Eric @ Studio Curve Dominant

Not to be rude but I'm sure it wasn't Kestral's recording skills alone that made that record sell, the talent has a whole lot to do with that. I'll listen to a mediocre mix of a great band before I'd ever listen to a great mix or a mediocre band, just look at how many people happily listen to mp3's. The truly ambitious acts will get there's whether they paid some AE tons of money or not.

[kats]

I'll listen to a mediocre mix of a great band before I'd ever listen to a great mix or a mediocre band

Sounds great, and I'm sure everyone here agrees with you. Thing is, talent kind of attracts. It seems that great bands work with great engineers etc. Funny how it works. You ever notice you rarely see bands with a great singer and shitty everything else (not for long anyhow). Talent kind of attracts. The band is usually pretty close to eachother talent wise and it kind of works that way with engineers. The better you are, the more you demand.

[Curve Dominant]

Originally Posted by Jonboy79

The truly ambitious acts will get there's whether they paid some AE tons of money or not.

The truly ambitious acts know they won't get what they deserve for $10/hr. They know they need to pay $50+/hr to get what really honors what they do, and are very much willing to pay for that.

They also understand that the money spent is an investment, not a loss, because they will be able to re-sell what they've created.

There is an awful lot of wishful thinking going around on this thread, not to mention a fundameental lack of understanding the basic laws of economics.

-Eric @ Studio Curve Dominant

[Curve Dominant]

Originally Posted by Jonboy79

I'll listen to a mediocre mix of a great band before I'd ever listen to a great mix or a mediocre band,

You simply are not getting it.

A great band would never settle for a mediocre mix. They don't have to. If the band really is great, they can afford a good mix.

Even the broke bands I know manage to scrape up the $$$ to hire me to mix what they recorded at the local $10/hr studio.

[Jonboy79]

Originally Posted by Curve Dominant

You simply are not getting it.

A great band would never settle for a mediocre mix. They don't have to. If the band really is great, they can afford a good mix.

Even the broke bands I know manage to scrape up the $$$ to hire me to mix what they recorded at the local $10/hr studio.

Let me ask you this, why do you care what the little guy charges? If he or she is fine with it then what business do you have telling them they're wrong? If you're happy and you're making money then what does it matter to you, keep doing what you're doing and I'll keep doing what I'm doing.