New Sheryl Crow tune, or is it auto-tune?

[A LaMere]

Count me in with one vote of I think Sheryl Crow is a fantastic artist... and maybe an even better singer. An OUTSTANDING singer. She doesn't "need" AT. But if she, or her mix engineer choose to use it as a tool... More power to 'em.

I think AT is a fantastic tool.
I also think digital recording is a fantastic tool.

Both can be used to record music and capture the emotion of a particular performance by an artist imo. Is it a tool that works for you? Good, then use it.

Is it a tool that doesn't work for you? Good... then don't use it.

Do me a tiny favor though and don't bitch about someone else using it as if you would have done something better with the mix than so and so...
C'mon boys... don't act as if you've achieved a higher ethical level than someone else just because you don't use AT!?

You never hear auto mechanics arguing about which tools are better than others do you....

Oh wait...

I guess you do hear that all the time...

Damn...

My point about arguing has been ruined.

[enroper]

I saw Crow in 1994, right after woodstock, when she was opening for blues traveler. She totally killed.

Unfortunately, it sounds like our girl is losing her shine. Shame...

[A LaMere]

Right now.... she's in the studio with Jeff Trott and Bill Bottrell.

Two guys who in the past have helped her to release brilliance.

It'll be interesting to see if she reverts to classic "Sheryl Crow" form with this next release. I do think that "Shine over Babylon" is the closest thing to the old Sheryl Crow sound that many of us loved...

[Eric Greedy]

I worked with her once as well.

I have to go on the record and say that in my opinion a lot of people "hear" AT when it isn't there in actual fact. I have heard singers in the studio - live - sometime hit a note with a timbre that i would almost swear sounds like it...but it wasn't. These aren't singers that have learned to sing since the advent of AT and so are unconsciously mimicking it... just that sometimes the human voice can do some strange things - That, and audio is also so subjective.
Also... Bill Bottrell is absolutely one of the very best at what he does and Jeff is an amazing song writer and musician... all in all they (and i am sure the rest of the musicians and engineers that are working on her new album) are just great.

Also... I have NEVER had any A&R person ever insist anything of the sort ("make sure it's AT and BD)... but maybe i've just been lucky.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by Eric Greedy

I worked with her once as well.

I have to go on the record and say that in my opinion a lot of people "hear" AT when it isn't there in actual fact. I have heard singers in the studio - live - sometime hit a note with a timbre that i would almost swear sounds like it...but it wasn't. These aren't singers that have learned to sing since the advent of AT and so are unconsciously mimicking it... just that sometimes the human voice can do some strange things

Here is the song in question, your honor.

YouTube - Sheryl Crow - Good Is Good: Album Version


Wow, 2 1/2 years since I started this.

Your right though, she could just be singing like that. The song is pretty good, I just hate those zipper runs. So you say she is doing that on purpose?

[Eric Greedy]

I could honestly go either way with that song. It is a very layered production. I like it a lot myself. there isn't a hint of intonation variance... which COULD mean it was tuned, but I've heard her sing that well so with the requisite time spent it is absolutely possible... it's not rocket science... It's singing! some people actually can sing. The devil's advocate in me though - not knowing John Shanks - says that anything is possible. If it is AT it is well done, nothing that raises a hand and says "bad AT here" like you can obviously hear elsewhere (no examples in my head at the moment though).

Off Topic slightly, but what i really like about her singing is the way she generally does not repeat herself across a song... always nice variation in melody and rhythm of the vocal melody. To each there own I guess.

[Grizzly]

I like Sheryl Crow but after hearing her live vocal performances, I'm not surprised she may need a little tuning help on her studio vocal tracks...

[big country]

I really like her new song

"love is free"

it's a fun kinda silly song

[manthe]

This is EXACTLY why, IMO musicians make good engineers (mixing and tracking). I am always a musician first. I've been writing and performing for 20 years. I can not tell you how much that helps me every single time I sit behind the board! I'm not saying it is a necessity, but I certainly consider it an asset for me!

PS - I don't own autotune/melodyne/etc. Not necessarily on principle, but I've never had a customer request it, nor have I ever desired to use it for my own material, on my own voice. Is there hypocrisy in mindlessly putting reverb on my voice without flinching, yet avoiding autotune like an STD?

Good thread, and great post doorknocker!

Originally Posted by doorknocker

Exactly! Look at what happened in the 80ies, what was considered 'modern' and 'as good as possible' then sounds HORRIBLE now in a lot of cases.

I hated it even then and never understood why people felt the need to adopt this production style to be 'contemporary'.

I said it before, if AutoTune really would make things better then I'd be all for it. But it just gives you the illusion of perfection.

I got a CD version of Sinatra's 'In the wee small hours' where the liner notes talk about how Sinatra would use the slight weakness in his voice in a certain register for expressional purposes. A slightly shaky note might be a means for expressing 'doubt' or 'heartbreak'. The problem is that the modern producer never even would consider such an artistic solution in the first place i.e AutoTune in permanent insert.

The 'AutoTune' syndrom is EXACTLY the same thing as the loudness race. 'Perfect' intonation and 'maxed out' mastering are achieved now. So where do we go from here? It's a situation that has no winners. The ones who rightly refrained from using these 'techniques' will be put under pressure by the 'industry' or even their peers: 'Your record isn't loud enough', 'Your singer isn't in tune' and eventually will join the crowd.

And friggin' why is it so damn important to have 'perfect' vocals when everything else is most certainly NOT pefectly in tune? What about Bass? Guitars? Horns?

Andi

DOORKNOCKER RECORDING STUDIO

[Joe Porto]

Sounds to me like the production is more on the modern country side than modern rock. IMO, autotune is simply a part of modern country production.

On a side note, you have to think also that the young fans who listen to modern country are used to the autotune. Perhaps those who sing along will even attempt to mimic the effect.

There was a great point made a while back. It may have been James Lugo, but I can't be sure. Whoever it was said that vocals now have frets.

This is exactly the case. How many guitar players could play a cello or violin with proper intonation? Is having frets on a guitar cheating? Is playing a piano cheating? The piano does all the work for you as far as intonation.

Modern technology has given the voice frets. It's part of the evolution of popular music. Autotune is here to stay (although I much prefer Melodyne).

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by jindrich

neither Ms. Aguilera Simpson Spears and colleagues sung. the engineers made it happen. btw, they use also playback live. what's the difference?

Both Ms. Aguilera and Ms. Simpson (the elder) are excellent singers. I'm not saying they've never touched AT or have never used prerecorded support live - I have no idea; but, they are certainly among the best pop singers around today.

Sounds like you are making a big assumption about the talent based on the genre.

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by Clayphish

I saw her live a number of years ago. All I can say is she's a horrible singer. You know the kind where there is a major lack of control and tone.

just my 2 cents. e

Wasn't Sheryl Crow at one point a backup singer for Michael Jackson? How do you get to be a backup singer for one of the best pop singers ever and be a bad singer?

[vernier]

Autotuning is intrusive and wrecks the quality of the vocal, except Miley Cyrus ..it somehow works with her.

[Kenny M]

Hmm...... the record in question was produced by a guy who is a "Producer of the Year" and has sold over 50 million records. It features some of the worlds most talented musicians and songwriters and all people can hear is the auto tuning???

I've had the cd since it came out and have heard the cd and song in question at least 100 times and this thought has never occured to me. I guess I must be missing the true essence of what music these days is all about.

Who gives a shit if it's auto tuned or not. You either like it or you don't.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by Kenny M

Who gives a shit if it's auto tuned or not. You either like it or you don't.

So then who gives a shit about who gives a shit if it's autotuned?

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by vernier

Autotuning is intrusive and wrecks the quality of the vocal, except Miley Cyrus ..it somehow works with her.

Well, I think autuning is intrusive and wrecks the quality of the voice when used intrusively and destructively. I tend to think there is a lot more autotune used well and unbeknownst to us than we like to think.

In lots of cases it can very convenient, fast, and be used discreetly.

The ethical consideration is another matter.

[kadeemusic]

Listening to "Good Is Good" right now.

My assessment: I'm not hearing much Auto Tune on her lead vocal at all. Some certainly may have been used, but I think they did a good job of making it inconspicuous. To me, it just sounds like a well-executed lead vocal. However the point where the vocals start sounding a bit funny is when the background and harmony vocals come in, or the parts where her voice is double-tracked. Tracking harmony vocals can be tough and time consuming; one weak link can throw the whole thing off. It's often a matter of practicality. Even big name artists and producers don't have the same budgets to make records that they once did. Auto Tune often serves as a time and money saver. Although I agree, some engineers and producers do misuse it.

When I first started hearing it on a lot of records, it used to be a bit distracting. Now I've gotten used to it, to the point where it doesn't bother me too much. Although I do think that such prominent use of it will cause a lot of today's records to sound dated. Kind of like the reverb-y electronic drums and DX7 electric piano did in the '80s.

[Kenny M]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

So then who gives a shit about who gives a shit if it's autotuned?

touche'

I dunno. I took a listen with my auto tune ears and maybe it is, maybe it isn't. It certainly doesn't sound like a Cher record or something.

[Bobro]

Originally Posted by TedF

Why is everyone so 'up in arms' about 'autotune'? Is it more of an effect and more destructive than say a compressor or an equaliser?

I get the feeling that it's cool to sneer at autotune, while at the same time we all 'accidentally' have it engaged..... let's face up to it, it can enhance a good performance if used carefully; and I defy anyone to spot it when used by a competent engineer (and he doesn't want it heard!)

As with all effects, it's simple to get it wrong (Aphex!) and not so easy to get the best out of it.... But as for Sinatra, his phrasing was immaculate, but some of his pitching was just a little suspect... so maybe even Walter (Sears) would have been happy to touch the voice with just a hint of autotune!

The first and most important question is: in tune with WHAT?

Do you believe that Moses brought 12-tone equal temperament down from Mt. Sinai, engraved on stone?

-Cameron Bobro

[Arkitecht]

[quote=Eric Greedy;1696951
Also... I have NEVER had any A&R person ever insist anything of the sort ("make sure it's AT and BD)... but maybe i've just been lucky.[/quote]

Are you carrying a four leaf clover in your pocket?

Years ago, when A&R said "make it (the mix) louder" it's not like they were saying-- "slam the compression at x:1 so the mix will be louder on the radio and kids will think the song is better." People knew what it took to make it louder, compressed the mix, and today that's generally what's expected.

I get your point, but when someone says "that verse doesn't 'sound' right" you can tell it's a pitch issue. But then again, A&R want to move up the corporate ladder (generally), so you scratch their back-- they scratch yours, and the game continues.


Sheryl Crow is a solid singer, she sang backup for Michael Jackson during the 1987 "Bad" tour, right? She sang backup for a lot of cats. She has the pipes. AT is probably just a cool effect for her.

[Eric Greedy]

Originally Posted by Arkitecht

Are you carrying a four leaf clover in your pocket?

Years ago, when A&R said "make it (the mix) louder" it's not like they were saying-- "slam the compression at x:1 so the mix will be louder on the radio and kids will think the song is better." People knew what it took to make it louder, compressed the mix, and today that's generally what's expected.

I get your point, but when someone says "that verse doesn't 'sound' right" you can tell it's a pitch issue. But then again, A&R want to move up the corporate ladder (generally), so you scratch their back-- they scratch yours, and the game continues.


Sheryl Crow is a solid singer, she sang backup for Michael Jackson during the 1987 "Bad" tour, right? She sang backup for a lot of cats. She has the pipes. AT is probably just a cool effect for her.

hmmm..

again. doesn't happen where i am. Traditional A&R are dead as a breed... now if your talking about Management (the new A&R) then I "hear" you. ;)

[Sounds Great]

I have been listening to some modern music on radio and trying to put a finger on it. These auto-tuners do more than just tune. They change the timber of the voice even on the accurate notes. They are adding a signature to vocals giving them all a bit of "sameness".

I just happened to be listening to the radio on my good system and I heard Crow's 'Strong Enough'. There is no auto-tuning and her voice sounds excellent, so much better than the song that brought up this subject. Great song, actually.