Pro's and cons of programmed drums vs hiring a live drummer, session Drummers welcome

[herecomesyourman]

Hey gang.

So, I have new management, and labels that look like they might be OK fits for what I'm doing. Strictly indie, but heavy touring schedules if I take one of these deals.

I had a drummer who recently bailed, and we've picked the songs to do our record with...would it be wise to spend months looking for a guy who may or may not give me what I need?

Or should I just get a good drum programmer to do things, record the record, and hire a band as I can afford to after touring acoustic solo, after I take a deal?

Anyone on here who's a session drummer and such should also PM me with contact info, because I am interested.

But I'd like to hear people's thoughts, it's an indie pop rock record, think Weezer meets the Pixies!

[Gandy]

Well I'd recommend getting a session artist, or getting a drummer to record the parts and send them to you. My simple reason for this is programmed drums/samples suck. And not every record I've listened to from the past 5 years is programmed, many do not even have samples added. No matter how much humanization you give the record, it'll never have the feel and often sound of real drums.

Also, I'd like to note I am a drummer and that could help you, I dunno whether you'd be interested in somebody across the pond...

[Ken Walker]

I always felt that programmed drums is great for most types of dance music and beats (think house, disco, hip hop), but if you're really doing music like the Pixies or Weezer please get a session drummer and keep it real. There's nothing like the feel of a real drummer. Can you imagine the Stones with a DR880 instead of Charlie Watts? Just my 2 cents worth.

[chrisso]

I think you should start looking for a full time drummer for the band now.
I also think you should hire a studio player to do the album.
There are amazing drummers who can cut it in the Indie genre.
Some very well known too like Matt Chamberlain.
You'll have an enhanced backing track, and although their fee might seem high at first, they would be able to do an album in a couple of days if needed, perhaps a day.
Although I have my own programmed drum product in the market, I think Indie music is a difficult area for programmed 'realistic' drums. Indie music has a few rough edges, and sometimes quite a specific feel. there aren't too many 'indie' appropriate drum sample products out there.
I would suggest programmed indie drums should stay within the loop/machine realm, like the drum sounds on Radiohead or Beck, and not try to sound like a drummer.

[Fletcher]

If you hire a serious "pro" drummer then there are no "cons"... if you hire a mediocre drummer there is nothing but "cons".

Interestingly, all drummers cost about the same. You can either spend it on the quality of player or you can spend it on studio time. Jim Keltner [who you can hire through the musicians union] charges a whole lot of money... but will nail your shit in one or two takes and it'll sound unfreakin' believable. Other guys will cost you $100/song... but you could be there for like 5-6 hours and still not get an amazing take.

Given my druthers... I'd go with a "first call" / "top gun" / "triple scale" kinda drummer any and every opportunity.

As always... YMMV.

Peace.

[John Eppstein]

Hire the best drummer you can find for the recording, then hire a drummer for the band who can cover the recorded parts.

[u b k]

The only possible reason I could see for going with programmed drums would be to save money on your end because you're flat broke. But to pay a programmer borders on insanity if you're not doing music that requires programmed rhythm tracks.

If you're doing anything remotely organic, acoustic, and/or human, please do yourself, your music, and the world a favor and get a real drummer on your tracks.

When it comes to music, feel is everything, and with a few stylistic exceptions a good drummer will absolutely obliterate anything produced by a machine, no matter who programs it.


Gregory Scott - ubk
.

[somniferous]

Nothing can replace a great drummer. However the samplers are starting to sound pretty good. I tend to used BFD/SSD when I'm writing stuff because it sounds decent and I don't have to worry about recording drums (I live in an apartment so the samples are great)

It's actually pretty scary how good the samples are starting to sound, I know people who compose music for TV and film and they use the programs in their final projects. In fact I'd wager that a vast majority of what we hear on commercials/TV is programmed.

However I would probably never release anything without a real drummer on it, mostly because I'd like to have another persons input on the music. The only time I could see using samples is if your going for drum machine sound (808/909)

[misterlong]

If your music is of a live nature, hire a drummer, every time.
Like fletcher says though, get a good one. If you look hard and go with local recommendations you should be able to get a real good drummer for the same/similar money to a mediocre one! The quality of the guy's kit matters too. Just go with recommendations.
If you were in UK I could recommend a couple of belters! I am sure there are some slutz round here who know of some good drummers local to you.
I can recommend a couple of shit hot guys in Southern Cali who would do you a blinding job (with some big credits). Let me know if you want any details
long

[Claude G.]

....well...all I have to say is that the programmed drumer will never be late, won't mess up and won't ask for more money.....

[talkshowman]

Plus you only have to punch in the information once, arf arf

[RCM - Ronan]

One more vote for a real drummer. Unless you are specifically going for characteristics that only programed drums can deliver, go for the real guy. There are so many great drummers out there and its really not that expensive to get them on records.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by herecomesyourman

Hey gang.

So, I have new management, and labels that look like they might be OK fits for what I'm doing. Strictly indie, but heavy touring schedules if I take one of these deals.

I had a drummer who recently bailed, and we've picked the songs to do our record with...would it be wise to spend months looking for a guy who may or may not give me what I need?

Or should I just get a good drum programmer to do things, record the record, and hire a band as I can afford to after touring acoustic solo, after I take a deal?

Anyone on here who's a session drummer and such should also PM me with contact info, because I am interested.

But I'd like to hear people's thoughts, it's an indie pop rock record, think Weezer meets the Pixies!

There are genres where the drums are typically so processed and gridified that a good drum program would likely be all but indistinguishable from the typical post-production drum sound.

But I don't think you fit in those.

As a guy who self records and whose own music spans downtempo to roots, I have to say that a drum machine is a compromise (that I've had to make, pretty much for most of that span). I've been programming drum machines (real and virutal) for almost 30 years, but, honest, I'd much rather work with a drummer and if someone gave me a budget, I'd certainly go that route.

Now, I will say this: I'll take a drum machine over a crappy drummer, almost any day.

[sameal]

id have to agree with the real drummer. the feel and sound of a real drummer can never be recreated with machinery. never. use whatever hardware software device you like, master the shit out of it, do whatever you can do to it and it will never sound like a real drummer.


i personaly will probably never work with a drummer again. i do electronic music anyways. i love the feel of cold digital devices in the songs i make. i like the precision and the attack i get out of the software/hardware. but i like to take my drum tracks and warp them into anything but drums. stack on the effects till it sounds like something from another planet. with this style music and my point of view of it it makes the most sense to use drum software and hardware.

for indie, its gotta be a real drummer. the warmth and feel of a real drummer isnt going to happen with anything but. i dont think it ever will really. this genre needs a real drummer generaly. i think youd have to be super crafty with a drum machine to pull it off.

but hey if thats your thing, why not give it a try. there are no rules, only guidelines.

[MiliteStudios]

Although I much prefer real drums, I'd bet most people here who claim that programmed drums sound terrible have heard several songs where the drums were programmed and they can't even tell.

[vudoo]

the foundation of any great song is the drum tracks. You want grooves, pocket, sexiness, tone....get a drummer !!!

[digitrax]

Another thing a real drummer can do is find the beats/rhythms that you didn't even think of - Steve Gadd is one of the masters of this (there would be no "Fifty Ways To Leave Your Lover" as we know it without Gadd's shuffle intro; there are many other examples as well). Programmed drums can sound good if you need a trance, disco, or dance beat, but you won't get that "artistic contribution" that a human drummer can add to the arrangement.

[sameal]

Originally Posted by MiliteStudios

Although I much prefer real drums, I'd bet most people here who claim that programmed drums sound terrible have heard several songs where the drums were programmed and they can't even tell.

this is true. i think its possible. i think there would be alot of magic metal boxes involved or really nice plugins and someone behind it with the magic hands. after all that buisness it might be easier to find a drummer though.

its kinda like my view on windows vista, if vista has to emulate xp, why not just stay with xp? if you have to emulate a drummer why not just get a drummer?

they are pretty scarce these days though.

[sameal]

speaking of which, thatd be a great thread, if someone posted a bunch of audio files with drummers and drum machines and had too guess which was which. kinda drum shootout style.

[dafe]

"Indie" is not only too large a bracket to opine on without having even a whiff of the stuff, I#d also say, that you have to get in closer touch with different drummers and their approach to get adequate support for your songs - apart from the " nail rate". Some music/song doesn't give a shit whether it's ole linn or live-bashing because it is complete, up and running on its own. Other lacks direction or definition, where drums, whatever nature have to be a bit up to very congenial/genius to even get a tinker's cuss out of it.

It depends, in other words, and it may be either the case that you get pretty well along with the newer machine capabilities with some fuzzy shaker or you need a real sort of musical input, be it a "trademark" as with the very admirable J. Keltner (personal fave in certain branches) or something out of hitherto existing imagination.

[audiostout]

A good drummer can save you a lot of time. And time equals money!

[FadersmakmeHappy]

Find a good session player who has a resume that reflects your style. Most quality studios know a few session players who will be a fit for your needs.

One thing I have found works REALLY well if you can swing the extra dough is a rehearsal session before the actual recording session. You will get stuff done quicker in the studio and the drummer will be more relaxed with the material and deliver a better performance. I always do this now.

There are so many great players who are willing to work for a reasonable amount these days. I have been able to work with some of the top drummers of our time at much less than you would imagine. If you have a dream drummer in mind, it might not be out of reach to contact that person and inquire about their rate especially if they are in your area.

[vernier]

Cons to programming is it takes more time.

[PRobb]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

If you hire a serious "pro" drummer then there are no "cons"... if you hire a mediocre drummer there is nothing but "cons".

Interestingly, all drummers cost about the same. You can either spend it on the quality of player or you can spend it on studio time. Jim Keltner [who you can hire through the musicians union] charges a whole lot of money... but will nail your shit in one or two takes and it'll sound unfreakin' believable. Other guys will cost you $100/song... but you could be there for like 5-6 hours and still not get an amazing take.

Given my druthers... I'd go with a "first call" / "top gun" / "triple scale" kinda drummer any and every opportunity.

As always... YMMV.

Peace.

What he said.
The groove and the sounds come very quickly with a great drummer. You can spend a whole day chasing your tail with an OK drummer (and the next day comping) and not get anything approaching what a real pro will give you in an hour and a half.

[fhames]

Much like theblue1, I have been self recording for 30+ years and use programmed drums as an alternative to a real drummer. Lately I have been recording drums at my home room. The magic is in the human touching the instrument and that sound through air into mics, pres, converters, etc...

[u b k]

Originally Posted by MiliteStudios

I'd bet most people here who claim that programmed drums sound terrible have heard several songs where the drums were programmed and they can't even tell.

Not a chance. At best, it would be a case where I'd have to say "it doesn't matter" because the feel of the track has nothing particularly human or special going on, so it could be either well-programmed drums or a mediocre/overly edited player.

But when it comes to killer drummers with that *thing* that only killer drummers can do, no amount of programming on earth will ever get you that.


Gregory Scott - ubk
.

[shanabit]

Id rather have a real (Great) drummer any day. No thanks on the sucky ones. I dont have an issue with sampled stuff but a real kit being played in a good room by a great drummer is priceless to the feel and sound of the track.

I remember years ago when we had an 8 track. Long story short I had to transcribe what the drummer did off a practice tape into the drum machine. Took FOREVER and was a major PITA. I wont do that again. LOL

Try this guy

Live Drum Tracks.com : Custom Drum Tracks by Ryan Hoyle, Drummer for Collective Soul, Paul Rodgers, and Worldwide Recording Sessions via Cave Studio.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

If you hire a serious "pro" drummer then there are no "cons"... if you hire a mediocre drummer there is nothing but "cons".

Interestingly, all drummers cost about the same. You can either spend it on the quality of player or you can spend it on studio time. Jim Keltner [who you can hire through the musicians union] charges a whole lot of money... but will nail your shit in one or two takes and it'll sound unfreakin' believable. Other guys will cost you $100/song... but you could be there for like 5-6 hours and still not get an amazing take.

Given my druthers... I'd go with a "first call" / "top gun" / "triple scale" kinda drummer any and every opportunity.

As always... YMMV.

Peace.

Absolutely.

I used Sean Pelton (instead of me) awhile back and I couldn't believe how easy he made my job. He easily saved me a week worth of work and production. These guys are so good that the track actually requires less production to sound finished. It's bizarre. I usually add a ton of percussion to fill in the holes but it just wasn't necessary.

Great studio players define the phrase "Hiring the best doesn't cost. It pays".

I know. It's corny.

[PRobb]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

Absolutely.

I used Sean Pelton (instead of me) awhile back and I couldn't believe how easy he made my job. He easily saved me a week worth of work and production. These guys are so good that the track actually requires less production to sound finished. It's bizarre. I usually add a ton of percussion to fill in the holes but it just wasn't necessary.

Great studio players define the phrase "Hiring the best doesn't cost. It pays".

I know. It's corny.

Pelton is fantastic. And for the answer to "but he's so expensive", I'll go back to what Fletcher said. He'll be out the door in two hours and you'll have a track that will sound great and groove like crazy. If you "save money" on the drummer, you'll get a MUCH longer session, then spend hours comping and mixing and it still won't sound or feel as good.

If you're hiring outside players- expensive players save you money!

[Steffmo]

I'll have to pile on and agree with everybody else.

I spent years playing session drums before I went to this side, and I programmed a huge number of drum tracks for folks.

I always found that bringing any kind of live feel to a drum program takes a huge amount of time and a real knowledge of how drums and drummers work. I really don't have the patience for it anymore.

Its simp;y so much more fun to get a great guy in to do it. Had Matt Wilson in not too long ago...on a singer songwriter gig. Totally smoked it. Pelton is another.

And yes, if time is money a great live drummer will both save money and elevate the trackx.