Mix on monitor sounds good, but regular spkrs not so good :(

[tincan]

I searched through some threads, but found no answer to my questions.

The problem I am having is my mixes are sounding really decent, obviously not professional studio quality, but for what I have (KRK5s, digi003), they are sounding pretty good to me.

BUT, when I downmix (24/44) and listen on my computer speakers (logitech 2.1 system) or in my car (tweets, mids, sub), or on my home stereo (late 80s sanyo tweet/mid/sub combo towers w/ amp) it sounds as if the song has been mixed in a tin can and it's so saturated that it's causing severe ear fatigue.

And it seems to me as if the kick/snare are almost pulsing with the music (as if compressed, but I have run no compressors) but causing some of the guitars/overheads/bass guitar to sound as if they're almost cutting out.

Really what I'm asking is what am I doing wrong? Any tips would be helpful! Thanks in advance.

[cooker]

Maybe a phase issue, how does it sound when collapsed as mono? a sample would help if you post here.

[dibble]

Things will always sound good on good studio monitors which is why you need to know what your listening for and the character of your monitors.....this is an ongoing struggle for me too....practice is the only way, and constant referencing. Post an audio clip up, I'm happy to offer my opinions on the mix, as i'm sure are others.....

[dkelley]

we all went through that on our first mixes. that's the process of learning how to mix...

there's no magic answer. listen to it and try to decide what you think is wrong. go remix it while trying to compensate for that sound you don't like. for example, probably your kick and snare need compression and are basically too loud in the mix in their uncompressed state. monitors can handle very loud things like badly mixed and uncompressed drums WAY better than consumer speakers.

remix, listen on cruddy stereo. remix, listen on cruddy stereo.

or better yet, do what most of us did back then and some of us (like me) still do. keep a cruddy stereo or two in your playback monitor area and mix on that as well as on your good monitors. switch back and forth regularly. get it to sound great on both sets of speakers. if you can make it sound awesome on logitech $40 speakers and on krks, you're on your way to learning the first steps of mixing.

cheers,
Don

[tincan]

Don! Thanks for that helpful tip, when I get home from work I think I'll hook up the crap speakers and try mixing between the two sets (krks to logis), I never thought of doing that.

As far as phase issue goes I don't think that's it, I checked the phase on the mics prior to all the mixing/recording and it checked fine, but I will post the audio tonight when I go home. I appreciate everyone's assistance!

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by tincan

when I downmix (24/44) and listen on my computer speakers (logitech 2.1 system) or in my car (tweets, mids, sub), or on my home stereo (late 80s sanyo tweet/mid/sub combo towers w/ amp) it sounds as if the song has been mixed in a tin can and it's so saturated that it's causing severe ear fatigue.

Assuming your gear is not defective, the likely culprit is the room you mix in. Do you have any bass traps or other acoustic treatment?

--Ethan

[tincan]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Assuming your gear is not defective, the likely culprit is the room you mix in. Do you have any bass traps or other acoustic treatment?

--Ethan

Unfortunately the room I am is my bedroom, we've sort of converted the entire basement into a kinda/sorta studio. My room is about 12'x8' with my console in the left hand end of the room, same with my monitors. I don't have any treatment in the room, and this obviously lends a hand in not letting me hear what the mix really is sounding like, but I'm moving soon and adding treatments isn't really an option for me.

[tysonviolin]

Those little KRK rokit5s are very usable though. You just have to learn them. All future recordings should be easier to mix.

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by tincan

I'm moving soon and adding treatments isn't really an option for me.

Yeah, sure, that's what everyone says.

In fact, you can move bass traps and diffusors etc from one place to another as easily as you can move loudspeakers and a console. Just putting them on the floor in corners and leaning against the side walls works well.

--Ethan

[tincan]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Yeah, sure, that's what everyone says.

In fact, you can move bass traps and diffusors etc from one place to another as easily as you can move loudspeakers and a console. Just putting them on the floor in corners and leaning against the side walls works well.

--Ethan

Moving them wasn't the issue, more the finances :D

[Oli_W]

Originally Posted by tincan

Moving them wasn't the issue, more the finances :D

DIY! Cheap as chips. Best little bit of money you've ever spent.

Definitely go with what Don said though: I need to do the same actually, might go nab my girlfriends logitech 2.1! She'll undrestand...

[JPeters86]

Most likely room and monitor positioning. Keep listening to tracks you think sound great. "learn" your monitors and room. Takes time though :-)

Considering low end: the primacoustic recoil stabilizer helps me alot.

[cooker]

Originally Posted by Oli_W

DIY! Cheap as chips. Best little bit of money you've ever spent.

Definitely go with what Don said though: I need to do the same actually, might go nab my girlfriends logitech 2.1! She'll undrestand...

Do you have any links for that? like what sort of material is best etc...

[recall]

One thing I will say is that before you start chasing a perfect mix select a commercially available cd/song you are very familiar with. Spend a couple of hours listening critically to that song and make notes - vocal level, overall tonality, how bright the cymbals are, how loud the kick/bass is etc etc.

I would do this on most if not all the systems you are listening on, it could be that the issues you are finding with YOUR mix may be present when listening to commercial recordings as well. In other words they are inherent in your playback systems.

If nothing else doing this is an eye opener and can teach a lot about critical listening.

Of course this is no substitute for a well treated room and mixing across a few sets of monitors but it may go a long way to understand what translates well and where the strengths and weaknesses are with your playback systems.

Good luck, we have all been on this road!

[dbbubba]

This may not help your situation as you have several answers to where your problems lie (your room and actual mixing experience,) but I would recommend only listening to music (in a critical/examining mode) on your Rokits IN THE ROOM YOU ARE MIXING IN.

Listen to LOTS of well recorded CDs on the RokIts.
Make the sound of monitoring in your mix environment be your reference.

This way you will match your ear to the sound of your room.
The sound of a good mix in your mixing environment will become your standard.

I only analyze mixes and music in general on my studio monitors.
I am also a live engineer, so I have to listen in a rather critical manner to set these rigs up.
Still, I only try to make the live rigs sound musical.
It is only because I have been at all of this for quite a few years and because I generally get to work with high quality equipment that I can pull it all together.
It is a lot to wrap your brain around!

You need a standard.
Having the home stereo speakers in your mix area for a reference wouldn't hurt anything.
The mix should sound good on the RokIts, but the ultimate goal is to produce a mix that translates to other playback systems well.

[tincan]

That's a really good tip, I'm going to listen to a few albums that I think are really well mixed, and try and go from there.

Thanks everyone for all the tips.

[songbirdsound]

1. It takes a lot of time to learn your monitors and room, and all of its weak points/points of exageration.

2. Mix at a low volume. If you can feel it there, you'll feel it when it's loud.

3. Turn it up once in a while to see if any freqs jump out or induce fatigue.

4. Reference on other speakers often. Earbuds, computer speakers, car, headphones, laptop...whatever. 99% of consumers listen on CRAP playback devices. Make sure they feel the drums and understand the vocal.

[tincan]

Song sample can be found at:

Free File Hosting Made Simple - MediaFire

Any critique anyone can offer would be greatly appreciated!

[Jonboy79]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Assuming your gear is not defective, the likely culprit is the room you mix in. Do you have any bass traps or other acoustic treatment?

--Ethan

It is possible to have a decent sounding recording without having treatment in your room. I don't have a bit of treatment and nearly everyone I've recorded has been ecstatic with their mixes. I did spend a lot of time finding the sweet spot in the room though and I upgraded from crappy 5" monitors to some decent mid level 8" monitors. Honestly buying the new monitors was my biggest upgrade to my mixes. I'm sure room treatment will probably help even more and it is on my list of things to do but it certainly isn't impossible to create a decent sounding mix in an untreated room.

[beebay007]

Originally Posted by Jonboy79

and I upgraded from crappy 5" monitors to some decent mid level 8" monitors.

5" monitors aren't necessarily bad, I use Tannoy 5" monitors and they work well for me..

[beebay007]

I'm having a listen to your mix - it does sound a bit tinny. Maybe its a case of needing to be referencing with other similar material as you mix.

[tincan]

I did some referencing with similar style music (protest the hero, bury your dead, etc...) and I just can't find that even ground to sort of put them in the same plateau.

I'm relatively new to the engineering world, been playing music for 17ish years, but only done engineering since august of 2008 when I bought a protools LE rig.

I suppose these things will come with time.

[FireMoon]

It sounds like a mix made on small speakers monitored at too high a level because you are wanting to hear some meat to the sound.

At a blind guess you have a build up of bass energy in the room that is fooling you into thinking the mixes are, if anything, bass heavy, when in fact they are bass shy..

In effect, everything in the mix is fighting for the same space between 100hz and 5 k.

Listen to the synth part at the end. Take any bass shelving off you have on it, i'd guess it might even have a high pass filter style eq on it and listen to that in isolation. It's probably, in its' raw state, a pretty full range sound. Then listen to it against your mix of the track and you will hear plainly how you have everything crowded into a, relatively narrow, sonic window.

I'd say you need to get your room treated, big time, to allow yourself to actually hear the bottom end without the bloom, i guess, you are getting big time...

It's one of the paradoxes of mixing. That many of us start out trying to make big hairy arsed rock mixes on tiny speakers. It can be done, but usually by people with a wealth of experience, who have reached a point where they just *know* instinctively how to piece together a mix through, virtually, any system in any room.

My advice would be the following...

Treat the room, you can make pretty good stab doing it yourself for relative peanuts...

Keep the speakers you have and get some Blue Sky media desks, if you are going to want to make rock mixes you need something that, at least, has a genuine stab at bass, at low listening levels and they sure do that.

Then practice, practice, practice...Believe me, the day your mixes suddenly seems to leave the flat plane of the speakers and move into the room is one of the biggest hits you will ever get...

But you have gotta want that and want to go through all the frustrations leading up to it. The days when you feel you can;t mix a drink, let alone a song.

[rty5150]

Originally Posted by Ethan Winer

Yeah, sure, that's what everyone says.

In fact, you can move bass traps and diffusors etc from one place to another as easily as you can move loudspeakers and a console. Just putting them on the floor in corners and leaning against the side walls works well.

--Ethan

once again, ethan winer FTW!!!


rich

[Ethan Winer]

Originally Posted by Jonboy79

it certainly isn't impossible to create a decent sounding mix in an untreated room.

Of course, but with bass traps and RFZ absorption it is much easier to get a good mix. It's also much more fun and a lot faster too when you can hear accurately.

--Ethan

[tincan]

Well I guess my solution is to find a cost effective way to make some bass traps and treat my room. I'll post another mix after I've done this and worked on it some more.

Thanks again for everyone's help!

[songbirdsound]

Listened on my laptop computer speakers, and after years of listening on and off to genres similar to this, it sounds kinda close to what I usually here from these bands. In other words, most of these types of bands I've heard don't have great mixes!

Now I can hear the high end of the kick well, but no bass. It's all gtr and screaming, but really, isn't this in line with other screamo acts? If ear fatigue is a problem then try rolling off 1.5k to 3.5k, with a strong focus on 2k. These are where your ears are most sensitive. Now, you'll lose some of the vocal presence but you can get it back with level automation and compression.

Try multing/parallell compressing/effecting the bass to give it more meat and control, and make sure you can hear the bass at a low volume. Took me years to get this concept.

[Old Goat]

Originally Posted by tincan

Well I guess my solution is to find a cost effective way to make some bass traps and treat my room. I'll post another mix after I've done this and worked on it some more.

Thanks again for everyone's help!

Wander down to the studio construction forums--there's a buttload of DIY info and lots of people willing to help. My little room cost under $500 to do, and all the treatments can be moved if I ever leave. You can see it here. Ethan and Glenn and the rest of the gang were of immense help, and the treatment made a huge difference in my mixes!

[lukaslukas]

Originally Posted by dkelley

we all went through that on our first mixes. that's the process of learning how to mix...

there's no magic answer. listen to it and try to decide what you think is wrong. go remix it while trying to compensate for that sound you don't like. for example, probably your kick and snare need compression and are basically too loud in the mix in their uncompressed state. monitors can handle very loud things like badly mixed and uncompressed drums WAY better than consumer speakers.

remix, listen on cruddy stereo. remix, listen on cruddy stereo.

or better yet, do what most of us did back then and some of us (like me) still do. keep a cruddy stereo or two in your playback monitor area and mix on that as well as on your good monitors. switch back and forth regularly. get it to sound great on both sets of speakers. if you can make it sound awesome on logitech $40 speakers and on krks, you're on your way to learning the first steps of mixing.

cheers,
Don

Yup! I keep a cheap-o set of computer speaker (Cambridge SoundWorks stereo setup with the little plastic sub) to test against a mix on my KRK's. It's really helpful especially if you try to layer alot of guitars and they suddenly disappear when you play your mix back on the crapboxes!

[Dove]

Originally Posted by tincan

I don't have any treatment in the room, and this obviously lends a hand in not letting me hear what the mix really is sounding like, but I'm moving soon and adding treatments isn't really an option for me.

Throw ups some blankets and comforters for now. Not great but better than being bing banged by harsh walls. Then when you move try some room treatment. World of difference.

The as others suggested, use mulitple monitor arrays to mix on (include car speakers, cheap computer speakers, home stereo speakers and some decent close field studio monitors. Then practice until you zone in.

Another option is to get high end headphones until you move. That takes the room out of monitoring. Not recording though. And yes there are some headphones that will work but they will cost a fair bit.